Minnesota Controversial Ending

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

MN does have limited video review in state tournament games, but only for the games that are actually televised (about half the quarterfinal games, and all of the semi-finals and finals). Games in the consolation brackets do not have video review.

This situation would've qualified for video review, but this was NOT a state tournament game. This was a section final game, and the winner advanced to the state tournament.

MN Post season works like this: each class (A, AA, AAA, AAAA) is divided up into 8 sections, with each section having anywhere from 8 to 14 teams in it (the smaller classes usually have larger sections, mainly due to the advent of a bunch of tiny charter schools that have sprung up in the last handful of years). Each section has a single-elimination tournament, with the semifinals and finals being at neutral sites. The winners from each section advance to the state tournament.

The state tournament then consists of 4 classes of 8 teams apiece (the 8 section champions). The losers in the quarterfinal round go into the consolation bracket, and then compete for the "consolation championship" (ie: 5th place). The losers in the semifinals play in a 3rd place game.

Do teams really enjoy playing in the third place, or consolation bracket? There was a reason the NCAA got rid of the third place games years ago. I am surprised there are actually teams that really want these games.

This is different than a regular season event where teams are guaranteed a certain number of games.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Do teams really enjoy playing in the third place, or consolation bracket? There was a reason the NCAA got rid of the third place games years ago. I am surprised there are actually teams that really want these games.

This is different than a regular season event where teams are guaranteed a certain number of games.

I'm sure they don't enjoy it as much as they would if they were playing in the championship game, for obvious reasons.

But I think there's still some value to be had. Some of these teams are traveling 5 or 6 hours one-way just to get to the tournament sites in Minneapolis... that's a long way for a high school team to go for a potential one-and-done.

The consolation games I worked last weekend, the teams, coaches, and fans certainly seemed to be into it, and for the most part it was a great atmosphere.

[BoomerSooner]

I have a couple of questions from watching the video several times and believe the crew may have been debating either of them, and thus the delay in making a ruling.

1. Were the light and buzzer synchronized with each other?
I was able to pause the video at a point with the light on and then heard the buzzer go off after clicking play. I don't believe they were in sync. Obviously the light takes precedence with regard to ending the period, but it could have thrown the crew off, especially if they were debating the next question...

2. Does the light meet the definition set forth in the rule book for a light, and if not do we use the buzzer?
I don't believe a light above the clock above the backboard, meets the definition set forth in the rule book for a red light/LED signal. If this configuration has been approved in Minnesota then so be it, but by the book, the red light is supposed to be behind the backboard or an LED light on the backboard. Is it possible they discussed this?

Personally, I think the shot was released after the light but before the buzzer, so I could seriously see them discussing my first question. I'm curious as to if anyone would give my second question any thought. Does placing the light in a place other than designated by rule require us to use the audible signal to determine the end of a period?

Honestly I can't say I would have questioned it during the game, but maybe during pregame? I've also been fortunate to have never worked a game with the light placed as such.

PS: After looking at the twitter with the video, I found a still photo in which there appears to be a red light behind the backboard, although it is not illuminated and the light above the clock is illuminated with 0.0 on the clock. Obviously there is no sound with a still photo.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

I have a couple of questions from watching the video several times and believe the crew may have been debating either of them, and thus the delay in making a ruling.

1. Were the light and buzzer synchronized with each other?
I was able to pause the video at a point with the light on and then heard the buzzer go off after clicking play. I don't believe they were in sync. Obviously the light takes precedence with regard to ending the period, but it could have thrown the crew off, especially if they were debating the next question...

2. Does the light meet the definition set forth in the rule book for a light, and if not do we use the buzzer?
I don't believe a light above the clock above the backboard, meets the definition set forth in the rule book for a red light/LED signal. If this configuration has been approved in Minnesota then so be it, but by the book, the red light is supposed to be behind the backboard or an LED light on the backboard. Is it possible they discussed this?

Personally, I think the shot was released after the light but before the buzzer, so I could seriously see them discussing my first question. I'm curious as to if anyone would give my second question any thought. Does placing the light in a place other than designated by rule require us to use the audible signal to determine the end of a period?

Honestly I can't say I would have questioned it during the game, but maybe during pregame? I've also been fortunate to have never worked a game with the light placed as such.

PS: After looking at the twitter with the video, I found a still photo in which there appears to be a red light behind the backboard, although it is not illuminated and the light above the clock is illuminated with 0.0 on the clock. Obviously there is no sound with a still photo.

I think you are over analyzing things. It's still a HS game and I wouldn't expect all the bells and whistles that the rules necessarily cover. The wave off was the correct call, and I didn't even think it was all that close from my first viewing.

[BoomerSooner]

Originally Posted by deecee

I think you are over analyzing things. It's still a HS game and I wouldn't expect all the bells and whistles that the rules necessarily cover. The wave off was the correct call, and I didn't even think it was all that close from my first viewing.

From a practical standpoint, I agree with how the situation was handled as the ball was in the shooter's hand when the clock showed 0.0 and the light was on.

That said, yes, I am over-analyzing the situation for the sake of theoretical discussion. I'm honestly curious if others have opinions on the light placement. For example, if you were aware of the placement before the game, how would you pregame it? Is the proper placement worth mentioning to game/site management or your assignor? Other than watching the end of a prior game, I've never done a pregame horn/light check but given the slight lag between the two in this situation, I'm questioning if I should in pregame. I've never had a situation like this with a slight lag between the two (I have had situations where the horn has failed to go off entirely).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

For example, if you were aware of the placement before the game, how would you pregame it?

Only one of our regular season sites has lights, and we always pregame that light "trumps" horn. We would do the same for a state tournament site.

[BillyMac]

2.13 SITUATION: The signal to end the fourth quarter cannot be heard by the officials. The table officials disagree as to whether the ball was in flight during a try for field goal when time expired or if a foul occurred before the ball became dead. RULING: The final decision shall be made by the referee, and unless he/she has knowledge to alter the ruling, the goal shall count if it was successful and the foul shall be charged and penalized. (2-5-5)

5.6.2 SITUATION I: During the pregame warm-up, the officials observe that the facility has functioning LED lights on each backboard. A1 begins the act of shooting just prior to
the expiration of time in the first quarter. The covering official observes the attempt in A1’s hands when the LED light is activated, but the ball appears to be out of the hands when the horn is sounded. The ball goes in the basket. RULING: No goal; the quarter expired prior to the release of the try. COMMENT: Red/LED lights provide a visual reference for officials to determine when a period has ended. The red/LED lights and the horn are expected to be synchronized, but since light travels faster than sound, it may appear that one follows the other. The red/LED lights give a more precise indication that a period has expired. (1-14; 6-7-6)

2-13-3: If table officials disagree, the goal shall count and/or the foul
shall be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such
ruling.

1-14 A red light behind each backboard or an LED light on each backboard is
permitted to signal that time has expired for a quarter or extra period. In
facilities without a red light behind or an LED light on each backboard, the
audible timer’s signal shall indicate that time has expired.

2-12-7: Indicate by signal the expiration of playing time in each quarter
or extra period. If a red/LED light is used, the light is the official
expiration of playing time.

[rbruno]

Always feel like the light is irrelavant unless you can use video replay. During live game action we have to watch the players and listen for the horn to determine if the goal was good or not.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Do teams really enjoy playing in the third place, or consolation bracket? There was a reason the NCAA got rid of the third place games years ago. I am surprised there are actually teams that really want these games.

This is different than a regular season event where teams are guaranteed a certain number of games.

Some do, some don't. It is different than college in many ways. For the NCAA, it was money as much as anything. For HS, there is a distinct drop in attendance in the consolation brackets for some levels/teams. But, when a small school's teams have traveled 500 miles to get to a game, they're going to want to see them play no matter whether it is in the 3rd place game or the championship.

And the teams playing generally take it very seriously. I've had some mail it in in games I've worked, but more often than not, they're trying to eek out one more win to finish the season on a win.