NCAAM - Inbound steal = Primary or secondary defender?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by johnny d

This is an outnumbered fast break. Both B1 and B2 are secondary defenders. Neither can establish LGP in the RA.

I don't know how you came to this conclusion from the AP? Can't tell if its outnumbered and/or the defender was in the RA.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't know how you came to this conclusion from the AP? Can't tell if its outnumbered and/or the defender was in the RA.

He only mentions 3 players, so I am assuming they are the only three players involved. Unless definitions have changed, 3 is an odd number. Also, since he is asking about primary/secondary defenders, the logical inference is that the play involves the RA, otherwise, those terms are irrelevant.

[bucky]

To avoid a rabbit hole regarding the RA, I have added details to the OP. Not sure I would call this a fast break nor do I feel that this is an outnumbering situation. Once A2 gets the ball, there is no immediate defender between A2 and the basket. B1 steps inbounds and becomes a defender. Does B1 become a primary or secondary defender?

[deecee]

Lets say only A2 and B1 are involved and all other players are "behind" them on the other half of the court. What do you have?

If a primary defender has not been established how can you have a secondary defender? The only way is an uneven fast break.

[Raymond]

Rule 4 Section 36. Secondary Defender

Art. 1. A secondary defender is a teammate who has helped a primary defender after that player has been beaten by an opponent because he failed to establish or maintain a guarding position. A defensive player is beaten when the offensive player’s head and shoulders get past the defender.
Art. 2. A secondary defender is a teammate who double teams a low post player.
Art. 3. After an offensive rebound, there are no secondary defenders when the rebounder makes an immediate move to the basket.
Art. 4. In an outnumbering fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially shall be a secondary defender. This designation as a secondary defender shall not prevent the defender from establishing legal guarding position on an offensive player and defending that player all the way to the basket including in the Restricted Area Arc.

[Raymond]

There are no case plays that address the OP's scenario. Therefore, we have to go with the rule book definitions of a secondary defender. Does the defender in this situation meet any of the definitions from Rule 4-36?

[bucky]

This is one problem with the forum, non one will just answer a simple question. They usually just provide more questions and in most cases, an answer can be garnered, but not in this case. That is why I asked for an opinion (when I said "what do you think?)

I am familiar with the rules and feel that this play may not have a specific rule to apply to it.

"Lets say only A2 and B1 are involved and all other players are "behind" them on the other half of the court. What do you have?" - In this case (not mine) I presume that B1 is inbounds and even able to guard A2. I would call him a primary defender when A2 gets the ball. But your question is not my case.

If a primary defender has not been established how can you have a secondary defender? The only way is an uneven fast break. - Maybe you can't, however you are not answering the question. Maybe another question regards when and how a primary defender is defined. Can a primary defender ever be out of bounds? In this play are there neither primary nor secondary defenders? Is that ever possible once an offense has been established?



In the OP, what would you rule and why? If you think B1 is a primary defender in the RA, then you have an offensive foul. If you think B1 is a secondary defender in the RA, then you have a defensive foul. If you think that B1 is neither a primary nor a secondary defender, then you have found a loophole in the rules regarding the RA......and you would have to make some sort of call based on something. I guess you could no-call it but that will anger more people than not.