Notifying the head coach when a team is granted its final time-out

[LRZ]

Originally Posted by Jesse James

I’d have to assume the official scorer gave the official bad info.

Whether the official relays the bad info (1 left), or doesn’t say a word—I’m not certain how that changes the results in this instance.

It doesn't change the result. It changes who is responsible for the error, taking the liability off of the referees.

[Jesse James]

Originally Posted by LRZ

It doesn't change the result. It changes who is responsible for the error, taking the liability off of the referees.

I don’t see the difference. Scenario 1, coach gripes to assignor, “Your official told us we had 1 timeout left when we didnt.” Scenario 2, “Your official, per rule, failed to inform us when we were out of timeouts.”

Official’s answer to both, “I was given bad info.”

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Jesse James

I don’t see the difference. Scenario 1, coach gripes to assignor, “Your official told us we had 1 timeout left when we didnt.” Scenario 2, “Your official, per rule, failed to inform us when we were out of timeouts.”

Official’s answer to both, “I was given bad info.”

The difference is the official broke into jail in Scenario 1 by trying to be a "good guy" doing something unnecessary.

[LRZ]

Jesse, the difference is that BC is claiming that it was the referee's fault for telling the BC coach he had one TO left, not the table's or team's scorer's fault for misinforming the referee: "the referee came over to my huddle and told us we had 1 timeout remaining (which we have on video, and will be sending to the ref assigner for NCS)."

[BayStateRef]

I wonder how the official determined there were no time outs left and issued the technical foul -- after (presumably) being told just a minute earlier the team had one. Did the home scorer deliberately lie? Did the official keep count on his own and just messed up?

I completely agree officials should only tell the coach when he is out of time outs, but clearly the official did not do that here. When we get bad information from the scorer and don't award merited free throws, we can correct the scorer's error if caught in time. But here -- the penalty for the scorer's error is particularly harsh.

Of course the team should keep its own book and know the time out situation -- but the same argument can be made about keeping track of team fouls. I would prefer the technical for calling too many time outs should apply only if the coach has been informed by the official that he has no time outs left.

[Kansas Ref]

Invariably during the 4th quarter this convo ensues:
Coach: "hay ref, how many time outs do I have left?"
Kansas ref: "coach please verify your timeout status with the score table". [I say this loud enough within earshot of the score table so they know what to expect]

Also this occurs at the beginning of a granted timeout as I am taking my wait position:
The guy or gal at the score table will demonstrably indicate to me with their hands..."3 time outs a full and a 30 on this side, 2 timeouts , 2 30's on this side". I know these score table personnel [who never wear the required striped shirts] are doing what they feel is their due diligence. But I always wait until their histrionic display is over, then I say "thanks score table, please let me know when there are zero timeouts left".

And invariably this also occurs, my partners who is well-meaning will say "2 timeouts left for red team, 1 for blue team...". To which I always say, "thanks, let me know when there are zero left".

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

...

And invariably this also occurs, my partners who is well-meaning will say "2 timeouts left for red team, 1 for blue team...". To which I always say, "thanks, let me know when there are zero left".

I have no problem with partners letting me know the time-out count, especially in situations where a team is out of full/60-second time-outs or out of 30-second time-outs.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

I would prefer the technical for calling too many time outs should apply only if the coach has been informed by the official that he has no time outs left.

I would also prefer this, but that's not the way the rule reads.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by BayStateRef

I wonder how the official determined there were no time outs left and issued the technical foul -- after (presumably) being told just a minute earlier the team had one. Did the home scorer deliberately lie? Did the official keep count on his own and just messed up?

I completely agree officials should only tell the coach when he is out of time outs, but clearly the official did not do that here. When we get bad information from the scorer and don't award merited free throws, we can correct the scorer's error if caught in time. But here -- the penalty for the scorer's error is particularly harsh.

Of course the team should keep its own book and know the time out situation -- but the same argument can be made about keeping track of team fouls. I would prefer the technical for calling too many time outs should apply only if the coach has been informed by the official that he has no time outs left.

In the original scenario described by Nevada, the coach called the timeout between free throws by the opponent. In this scenario, I would agree that a technical might be harsh if there indeed was some misinformation spread around. In something like that, where the ball was dead, I would be in favor of immediately ending the timeout upon discovery that the coach had zero, not charging the tech, and play on. (I'm not saying I would do that, that's not the rule, but if a rule change were considered, that would make sense to me.) However, this cannot be a blanket statement the situation occurs. Consider this: Tie ball game, and a team misses a shot, rebounded by the defense with 3 seconds remaining, and the possessing team immediately calls for and is granted a timeout. In this situation, that team has gained a considerable advantage, and a play-on undoubtedly benefits that team. Without the ability to change the rule to a consistent, fair ruling, I would not be in favor of a rule change.

With all that in mind, if a coach requests a timeout during a dead ball, and you know he's out, do you double check with him? "You're out coach, are you sure?" or something similar to that? Live ball you don't really get that luxury, but during a dead ball, I don't see the harm in making sure he isn't making an absent-minded mistake.

[Nevadaref]

I should also add that this game was played at a neutral site which was hosting six games that day. Neither team participating in this contest was at its home gym.

Additionally, the scorer’s table at this site is about twenty rows up in the stands, so it is an unusual setup.

[deecee]

I never said "you have no timeouts or 1 timeout"

I always said

"the scorer has informed me that you are out of timeouts."

they can verify and i have made it clear im the middle man.

[rbruno]

Had it happen to me in a varsity game 6 or 7 years ago. Table informed me that Coach A had one 30 sec time out left. I informed the assitant coach that they had one timeout left. 5 or 6 min later Coach A calls time and the table informs me they have no timeouts left. After glaring at the home book person I inform all we have a Technical foul. I am the bad guy now. For years I was always informing coaches how many time outs they had left. This will never happen to me again. When the table informs me they have 2 left etc I tell them to tell me when they have none. Keeping track of timeouts is the tables job and all those assistants on the bench. Our job is to inform the coach when he has NO timeouts left (I always check the book when this happens).

[BigCat]

For the record...on this play, if my partner tells the coach he has a TO remaining..(which he shouldn’t have done) I will say no TO and play on. Yes, teams should have their own scorer/confirm etc. Hiwever, Rules put us in charge and even tell us to notify HC when they have 0 left. That didn’t happen here.