D3 Player Takes Cheap Shot

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Close?? The only way I am calling that is if I have a monitor. While the game is going on I would call this or consider this a live play or action.

Peace

Great, and Rich said without replay he'd have an F2 technical. The ball is closer than you seem to think to being dead (it's already in the net when the contact occurs).

Two respected posters, two different opinions.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Great, and Rich said without replay he'd have an F2 technical. The ball is closer than you seem to think to being dead (it's already in the net when the contact occurs).

Two respected posters, two different opinions.

I'm just saying, we were told without monitors we have to be completely right. We cannot guess or speculate, we have to know. And likely we would have to have 2 officials verify that took place as well. I am just saying this from a self-preservation standpoint. And most of the plays are not this hard to officiate. Even the Hook and Hold plays are not this complicated as to what makes it a Flagrant Foul.

And the ball has to be completely through the net to be dead, not just in the net. If there is any doubt, I am considering the ball live. Just like I would with other similar fouls where a common foul or a dead ball contact foul would be at issue.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I'm just saying, we were told without monitors we have to be completely right. We cannot guess or speculate, we have to know. And likely we would have to have 2 officials verify that took place as well. I am just saying this from a self-preservation standpoint. And most of the plays are not this hard to officiate. Even the Hook and Hold plays are not this complicated as to what makes it a Flagrant Foul.

And the ball has to be completely through the net to be dead, not just in the net. If there is any doubt, I am considering the ball live. Just like I would with other similar fouls where a common foul or a dead ball contact foul would be at issue.

Peace

I didn't say the ball was dead, I said it was close enough to being dead that ruling a technical rather than personal foul would not be something to lose sleep over.

I have stated more than once that this is an F2PF for me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I didn't say the ball was dead, I said it was close enough to being dead that ruling a technical rather than personal foul would not be something to lose sleep over.

You have to speak for yourself on this one. I would be worried about this if it was not supported by the video. I want to beat the tape anytime I can. But this might very for who you work with or the coaches you encounter. I do not want to call something that I cannot completely support.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have to speak for yourself on this one. I would be worried about this if it was not supported by the video. I want to beat the tape anytime I can. But this might very for who you work with or the coaches you encounter. I do not want to call something that I cannot completely support.



Peace

If you are sure, fine. But what if it went the other way and the ball was completely through the net when the foul happened and you called a flagrant 2? You'd be just as wrong, just the other way.

The T has a guy get coldcocked in the corner - I'd hope any supervisor would focus on the important issue - that the player was ejected.


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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

If you are sure, fine. But what if it went the other way and the ball was completely through the net when the foul happened and you called a flagrant 2? You'd be just as wrong, just the other way.

Just as wrong? How do we know that the ball was completely through the basket? Did you have to stop the video several times to make sure? That is the thing we could do if we had replay. In this game there likely is no replay. And yes that matters.

Originally Posted by Rich

The T has a guy get coldcocked in the corner - I'd hope any supervisor would focus on the important issue - that the player was ejected.

I hope a lot of things, but that does not mean it will take place that way.

I am not disagreeing with you if it is obvious, but it is not at all obvious. Meaning I have to look at the video very closely and even slow it down to know if that is what actually took place. A Flagrant Foul is a definite in this situation. But if you make it a T because you say it is a dead ball is not so much. Because as stated before, the coach might try everything to undermine your call.

Peace

[bucky]

Get your point Jrut, not arguing.

I do not think any of the 3 officials could tell you if the ball was dead or not at the time of the foul. L turns and watches the paint so he can't see when the foul occurs. C is likely watching rebounders and their action and he too would not know when the foul occurred. The T called the foul and knows when it happened. He also acknowledged the made 3 so he knows when that happened but he does not know which took place first. This would be a case where general basketball play would help. Generally speaking, 3-point shooters are fouled before the ball passes through the net. When was the last time you saw this not happen? So, given this and no monitor, it would be a safe and practical ruling to say the ball was live at the time of the foul.

As others have said, the focus will be on the injured player, the offender, calming the coaches/benches, etc. not splitting hairs on whether the ball was completely through the net or not.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You have to speak for yourself on this one. I would be worried about this if it was not supported by the video. I want to beat the tape anytime I can. But this might very for who you work with or the coaches you encounter. I do not want to call something that I cannot completely support.

Are you naive enough to think the average coach knows the rules well enough to know whether this play is an F2PF or F2TF?

The offender was ejected and the offended team got two FTs and the ball-that is the only thing that a coach would care about.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Are you naive enough to think the average coach knows the rules well enough to know whether this play is an F2PF or F2TF?

Coaches complain about things that happen in games whether they know the rule or not. That was not the baseline of my position where I believe this is about what a coach knows. My point is that coaches often complain about things they "think" they know and if that little part influenced the game, they might complain. A dead ball technical in Men's college is 2 shots and the ball automatically.

Originally Posted by SC Official

The offender was ejected and the offended team got two FTs and the ball-that is the only thing that a coach would care about.

Coaches can be very petty, even at the college level. So you say that is all they care about, but I have seen coaches complain just because they do not like a particular coach. That is where the supervisor comes in to make sanity out of a situation, but they might care. And a supervisor might care more. So to say it does not matter is not really true.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Coaches complain about things that happen in games whether they know the rule or not. That was not the baseline of my position where I believe this is about what a coach knows. My point is that coaches often complain about things they "think" they know and if that little part influenced the game, they might complain. A dead ball technical in Men's college is 2 shots and the ball automatically.

Coaches can be very petty, even at the college level. So you say that is all they care about, but I have seen coaches complain just because they do not like a particular coach. That is where the supervisor comes in to make sanity out of a situation, but they might care. And a supervisor might care more. So to say it does not matter is not really true.

A contact dead ball technical is two shots and possession, and that's not really relevant to this situation.

This is either a flagrant 2 personal or technical, and it's two shots and possession regardless of whichever is ruled. What I am surprised by is that the offended player shot the FTs; I thought trainers had come out on the floor to check on him, which would have mandated a sub unless a TO was granted.

It's highly unlikely, in this instance, that any coach is going to throw a fit because the ball was thrown in at the 28-foot line rather than the division line, or vice-versa. Especially at the D3 level where the majority of coaches have less-than-stellar rules knowledge. Heck there are plenty of officials that can't even tell you the difference between F2 personal and technical fouls; you mean to tell me the average coach would be able to?