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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 02:03am
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Study guide question

The following question appears on our study guide. I'd like to hear opinions.

During play, the Lead and Trail officials sound a whistle on a play during a drive to the basket by A1, signaling a foul on B1. The ball enters the basket after the whistle. The Lead signals that the foul occurred during the act of shooting, while the Trail signals the foul was before the act of shooting began. The two officials confer for several seconds. The Center, who is the Referee on the crew, enters the conversation and tells the other two officials to decide. They cannot. The C then tells the Lead to count the goal.

True or False

Rule references given are 2-5-3, 2-6, and Fundamentals 3 and 17
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 02:57am
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2-5-3 The referee shall: Decide whether a goal shall count if the officials disagree.

The R has to make a decision and tell one of the officials to take the call. That is what the C did in your question. I don't see any other way to handle it. I would answer True.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 03:52am
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
2-5-3 The referee shall: Decide whether a goal shall count if the officials disagree.

The R has to make a decision and tell one of the officials to take the call. That is what the C did in your question. I don't see any other way to handle it. I would answer True.

With the rule reference given, that's obviously what they were going for. However, it is a given that the trail has said there was a foul before the shot. Therefore, the ball is dead when the the lead makes his call. Right or wrong the trail's call came first. Neither of the other officials may overrule this. The shot doesn't count.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 07:16am
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
With the rule reference given, that's obviously what they were going for. However, it is a given that the trail has said there was a foul before the shot. Therefore, the ball is dead when the the lead makes his call. Right or wrong the trail's call came first. Neither of the other officials may overrule this. The shot doesn't count.
Unless T has a foul different from (and prior to ) the foul called by L, your logic doesn't make any sense.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 12:16pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Unless T has a foul different from (and prior to ) the foul called by L, your logic doesn't make any sense.

T DID have a foul prior to L. There is not enough information here to know whether there were multiple contacts or they saw the same contact and disagreed about whether the try had started. Either way, it seems to me that since T says foul before the shot, the ball should be considered dead on the foul called by the L.

This is not even a question of rules, but a question of what were the test writers thinking. I was already thinking that if I see this on the test, the safe answer is true, and the responses here reinforce that opinion.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 12:33pm
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The question just says "the foul." I think it's a reasonable assumption that there was only one foul and that the only issue is before / after the try started.

Suppose T had the only whistle, and indicated "no shot." Further suppose that BOTH L and C had the foul clearly after the try started and gave that information to T. Finally, suppose T agreed with them and wanted to change his / her mind. (all of the above happens a few times a season to each of us, I would guess)

We'd all allow T to change and count the basket. That's the OP, except that L also has a whistle.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 12:43pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
The question just says "the foul." I think it's a reasonable assumption that there was only one foul and that the only issue is before / after the try started.


It is certainly a reasonable assumption, but that's all it is. Every year we have at least a couple of questions where either you must assume something or else they're just flat out wrong. I'll deal with it.
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 01:55pm
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Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
It is certainly a reasonable assumption, but that's all it is. Every year we have at least a couple of questions where either you must assume something or else they're just flat out wrong. I'll deal with it.

That's true in almost all tests. In the NCAAW test, there's a question to the effect of: "With 57.7 left in the game, A1 inbounds the ball. The ball is immediately deflected out of bounds. The clock shows 56.5. The referee should have .3 taken off the clock."

Do they mean .3 from the original time (True)? Or, .3 from the current time (false)?

On last year's test, they had the same question, except "The referee should have an additional .1 taken off."

So, my guess is that THIS YEAR's answer would be "false"
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 02:05pm
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Allow me to pose another scenario.
Last second shot at the end of a period.
The covering official is an Umpire. He decides that the try was released after the horn and should not count.
The non-covering official by the mechanics manual happens to be the R. He disagrees and believes that the try was released before the horn and should count.

jar,
Is the ball dead or not? Does 2-5-3 empower the R to count the goal even though it isn't his call according to the PCA in the manual?
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Old Tue Oct 09, 2018, 08:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Allow me to pose another scenario.
Last second shot at the end of a period.
The covering official is an Umpire. He decides that the try was released after the horn and should not count.
The non-covering official by the mechanics manual happens to be the R. He disagrees and believes that the try was released before the horn and should count.

jar,
Is the ball dead or not? Does 2-5-3 empower the R to count the goal even though it isn't his call according to the PCA in the manual?
No 2-2-6 No official has the authority to set aside or question decisions made by the other official(s) within the limits of their respective outlined duties.
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