defender putting offense in danger

[Valley Man]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I would agree that the offensive player has the right to land without contact IF the defender was not already in the path before the offensive player jumped. That is a fundamental part of LGP. Perhaps that is what he meant.

Kinda what I meant .. if a defender obtains LGP and then falls back prematurely wont they more than likely move their feet somewhat backwards as well? thus moving positions AFTER the offense left the floor

with new POE on verticality does that play into this play as well .. player losing verticality

I am having issues with this play as well. I want to be able to chirp it to a coach as to the reason play was called and it is not simple.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

Kinda what I meant .. if a defender obtains LGP and then falls back prematurely wont they more than likely move their feet somewhat backwards as well? thus moving positions AFTER the offense left the floor

with new POE on verticality does that play into this play as well .. player losing verticality

I am having issues with this play as well. I want to be able to chirp it to a coach as to the reason play was called and it is not simple.

You seem to be stuck on the concept of the defender moving. Forget that. It is leading you to the wrong conclusion. Nothing in the rules says the defender can't move at all after the offense left the floor. Judging by that criteria will lead you to penalize a legal defender.

It does, however, say the defender must have LGP (in the path, two feet down, facing) before the offense jumps. It also says that the defender may move laterally or obliquely away after obtaining LGP. So, if a defender has to move sideways after the offense jumps in order to be in a position to take contact, that means they were NOT in the path and, by definition, didn't have LGP when the shooter jumped. Call it a block.

However, if a defender has LGP at the time of the jump and is in a position such that the offense is already going to hit them and they move laterally (slightly, position adjusting, but not into the path) or backwards and the offense still hits them, they have met the requirements of getting a legal position. Nothing they have done is wrong and can't commit a block. Note that having LGP also does not require the defender to continue to have two feet down or continue to face the opponent. They may be stepping, jumping, turning, etc. all while having LGP previously obtained.


As for verticality, that is about extending part of your body outside of your plane into the space of an opponent or jumping towards your opponent, not extending something away from your opponent. It is violating the vertical plane marked by the front of your established position.

[Valley Man]

thanks!

so your call is ...

coach inquires your quick answer is ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

... coach inquires your quick answer is ...

"Coach. The defender was in initial legal guarding position and didn't move toward the offensive player. The defender is entitled to a position on the court even if the defender is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down. The defender made no attempt to trip the offensive player. A player accidentally tripping is not the same as player being intentionally tripped. Also, I did not believe that the defender faked being fouled."

"And, yes Coach, I agree with you, I do look like George Clooney's identical twin."

Of course, if I'm short on patience, I could just simply give him the famous quote by that ancient, basketball official, Confucius, "There's a difference between being tripped, and tripping".

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"Coach. The defender was in initial legal guarding position and didn't move toward the offensive player. The defender is entitled to a position on the court even if the defender is momentarily lying on the floor after falling down. The defender made no attempt to trip the offensive player. A player accidentally tripping is not the same as player being intentionally tripped. Also, I did not believe that the defender faked being fouled."

If the defender is moving away from the offensive player and there is contact, he has not committed a foul whether he had previously had legal guarding position or not.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If the defender is moving away from the offensive player and there is contact, he has not committed a foul whether he had previously had legal guarding position or not.

Good point, but I wanted to "Blind The Coach With Professionalism And Excessive Proper Terminology Verbiage" (legal guarding position) and leave him dumbfounded, sobbing, and quaking in his shoes. Coaches hate it when I do that to them. On the other hand, I love it.

(With apologies to Thomas Dolby)

(just another ref: Thanks for not correcting the part where the coach thinks that I look like George Clooney's identical twin.)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Valley Man

... new POE on verticality does that play into this play as well ...

Basketball Points of Emphasis - 2018-19

LEGAL GUARDING POSITION, BLOCK/CHARGE, SCREENING, VERTICALITY

For 2018-19, the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee feels it imperative to remind coaches, officials and players about the restrictions in specific contact situations. Fundamental to each of these is the establishment of a legal guarding position with these reminders: Rule 4-23 defines guarding position.
•Once established, the defense can adjust to absorb contact or react to play while maintaining that position.
•Once established and maintained legally, block/charge must be ruled when occurring.
•Many times, a no call is not appropriate as a determination must be made.
•A defender does NOT have to remain stationary for a player control foul to occur. After obtaining a legal position, a defender may move laterally, even, diagonally to maintain position but may NOT move toward an opponent.
•Blocking is illegal personal contact with impedes the progress of an opponent with or without the ball.
•Charging is illegal personal contact caused by pushing or moving into an opponent’s torso.
•There must be reasonable space between two defensive players or a defensive player and a boundary line to allow the dribbler to continue in her path.
•If there is less than 3 feet of space, the dribbler has the greater responsibility for the conduct.
•A player with the ball is to expect no leniency regarding space.
•A player without the ball is to be given distance to find and avoid the defender (two strides by rule).
•A player must be in-bounds to have a legal guarding position.
•If an opponent is airborne (whether or not he/she has the ball), legal guarding position must be obtained before the opponent left the floor.

Diligence and constant review of game video and the rules code will help officials be consistent in the application of these rules.