Dribble ...

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Technically, not true.

Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Not to be argumentative, but for the good of the cause.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Yes and then the gurus complain about users not reading/finding it themselves. Sigh. Check 4.15.1 Sit C and 4.15.5 Sit C. They involve dribbles without the ball touching the floor. Hard to believe that throwing the ball against an official is considered a dribble.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

Yes and then the gurus complain about users not reading/finding it themselves. Check 4.15.1 Sit C and 4.15.5 Sit C. They involve dribbles without the ball touching the floor.

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s
backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches
the ball and: (a) passes the ball to A2; or (b) starts a dribble. RULING: The pass
against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the
ball. In (a), the pass is legal action. In (b), it is a violation for a second dribble. (4-
4-5; 9-5)

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

[BillyMac]

(Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, 1989)

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The dribble starts by deliberately pushing/throwing the ball to the floor. That is the control...the deliberate throw/push, not the next action. Nothing about the definition of a dribble requires anything else to happen.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

... but that doesn't change the fact that the dribble actually began on the release.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Once it is started, it is a dribble and all of the relevant dribble restrictions apply. The ball does not, by rule, have to be touched again for it to be a dribble.

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and starts a dribble. RULING: The pass against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. It is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

It's the holy grail, a citation that explicitly tells us that it only takes the start of a dribble to be a dribble.

The casebook play doesn't say anything about the ball hitting the floor, or being touched a second time. Nothing. It just says that A1 "starts a dribble".

I would still wait to be sure that this isn't a legal "bounce" pass, so a second touch would seal the deal for me, but by the book, the second touch isn't necessary.

Nice job Camron Rust. Way to stick to your guns. Nice debate. I learned something. Thanks for your persistence and your patience.

Play A: A1 ends his dribble, intentionally throws the ball in the air, runs several feet, and catches the ball that hasn't touched the floor.

Ruling: Violation for illegal (double) dribble.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

(Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, 1989)


4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and starts a dribble. RULING: The pass against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. It is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

It's the holy grail, a citation that explicitly tells us that it only takes the start of a dribble to be a dribble.

The casebook play doesn't say anything about the ball hitting the floor, or being touched a second time. Nothing. It just says that A1 "starts a dribble".

I disagree. I feel that it does say something about the the ball being touched a second time with "...which ended when A1 caught the ball." You feel that "starts a dribble" is the key when IMO, "..which ended when.." is also paramount. That is the violation for a second dribble, the complete act, not just the start of it.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

he is just being picky.

Um, no kidding. Apparently you glossed over my post and missed the part where I indicated "Technically,...."

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Camron and I were on the same side then too.

And I guarantee that neither one of you would call anything until the ball was touched.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Where does it state that stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it?

Where does it state that the ball may not be touched twice by the hands during a dribble? Is it this: The dribble ends when: c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands? But the twice touch doesn't have to be simultaneous, does it? Can't it just be twice before the ball hits the floor?

4.44.3 Sit C for tossing from one hand to the other. See rule (you cited already) 4-15 art 4 and case 4.15.4.Sit C for twice touch stuff.


There are instances where the books (rule and/or case) indicate "starts a dribble" (note a verb) is the issue but then that same case will have a ruling that indicates the violation is a "second dribble" (note a noun). Case 4.15.1.Sit C is a perfect example.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by bucky

I disagree. I feel that it does say something about the the ball being touched a second time with "...which ended when A1 caught the ball." You feel that "starts a dribble" is the key when IMO, "..which ended when.." is also paramount. That is the violation for a second dribble, the complete act, not just the start of it.

Then ended element is there to distinguish that the next act is a new dribble. The second dribble need never end for it to be a violation, it only needs to be started.

Originally Posted by bucky

And I guarantee that neither one of you would call anything until the ball was touched.

You'd be wrong. I've called it and I'll call it again. If it leaves the hand looking like the million dribbles I've seen before it, it is a dribble. If it leaves the hand looking like the million passes I've seen before it, it is a pass.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Then ended element is there to distinguish that the next act is a new dribble. The second dribble need never end for it to be a violation, it only needs to be started.

Then you are not following case citations. You are going only by, and quite strictly, the rule book.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

You'd be wrong. I've called it and I'll call it again. If it leaves the hand looking like the million dribbles I've seen before it, it is a dribble. If it leaves the hand
looking like the million passes I've seen before it, it is a pass.

That's just it, these plays are not ones you have seen millions of times, which is why you would not call anything until it was touched again.

You have not seen players throw the ball off the backboard to themselves millions of times. You have not seen a shooter, about to be blocked, drop the ball, millions of times. We have been talking about extremely rare cases.

I can see it now, shooter in the air, about to be blocked, simply lets go of the ball, and TWEET, immediately, before the ball is even close to the floor, you call a violation. I'd love to hear that conversation with the coach as well as see the entire crowd's amazement as to what happened.

Or, player after dribbling to a stop 20 feet from the backboard, clearly throws the ball to himself off the backboard, and you blow your whistle on release, signaling a violation before the ball even hits the backboard. Would love to see that too. Yikes!

Yes, I do recall that thread as well. Boring.


Respectfully, all that knowledge and experience CR and you only go by one set of rules... your own. That is perfectly acceptable however, I will continue to follow the rule and case books, as well as the released interpretations/POEs/comments/etc. Again ,with respect, I simply cannot respond to you any longer.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bucky

4.44.3 Sit C for tossing from one hand to the other. See rule 4-15 art 4 and case 4.15.4.Sit C for twice touch stuff ...Case 4.15.1.Sit C is a perfect example.

4.44.3 SITUATION D: (a) A1 tosses the ball from one hand to the other while
keeping his/her pivot foot in contact with the floor; or (b) A1 throws the ball over
the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: Legal in
(a), but a traveling violation in (b). In (b), since the ball did not touch the floor,
the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

4.15.4 SITUATION C: After dribbling and coming to a stop, A1 throws the ball:
(a) against the opponent’s backboard and catches the rebound; (b) against an
official, immediately recovers the ball and dribbles again; or (c) against his/her
own backboard in an attempt to score (try), catches the rebound and dribbles
again. RULING: A1 has violated in both (a) and (b). Throwing the ball against the
opponent’s backboard or an official constitutes another dribble, provided A1 is
first to touch the ball after it strikes the official or the board. In (c), the action is
legal. Once the ball is released on the try, there is no player or team control, therefore,
A1 can recover the rebound and begin a dribble.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; (b) the ball bounces away but A1 is able to get to it and continues to dribble;
(c) the ball hits A1’s foot and bounces away but A1 is able to overtake and
pick it up; or (d) A1 fumbles the ball in ending the dribble so that A1 must run to
recover it. RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor. In (b), even though the dribble
was interrupted it has not ended and A1 may continue the dribble. In (c), the
dribble ended when A1 caught the ball; and it ended in (d) when it was fumbled.
Even though the dribble has ended in (c) and (d), A1 may recover the ball but may
not dribble again. (9-5)

4-15-4: The dribble ends when:
a. The dribbler catches or causes the ball to come to rest in one or both
hands.
b. The dribbler palms/carries the ball by allowing it to come to rest in one or
both hands.
c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands.
d. The ball touches or is touched by an opponent and causes the dribbler to
lose control.
e. The ball becomes dead.

4.15.1 SITUATION C: A1 attempts a pass to A2 during pressing action in A’s backcourt. The ball hits B’s backboard and deflects directly back to A1 who catches the ball and starts a dribble. RULING: The pass against B’s backboard was the start of a dribble which ended when A1 caught the ball. It is a violation for a second dribble. (4-4-5; 9-5)

[BillyMac]

4.44.3 SITUATION D: A1 throws the ball over the head of B1 and then takes several steps before catching it. RULING: ...a traveling violation in ... since the ball did not touch the floor, the tossing and subsequent catch is illegal. (9-4)

Wait? I thought that you could only travel (one rare exception and this is not it) when holding the ball? And there's that pesky ball touching the floor play that keeps rearing its ugly head.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Example, or citation please (would prefer an example).

Not to be argumentative, but for the good of the cause.

Probably what he means is throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official. Of course, the rules book states that both of those are treated the same as contacting the floor, so he is just being picky.

I've been striving to make the more important point that the ball must bounce before a moving player may touch it again because it isn't a legal dribble if it doesn't. (Note for someone being picky and not understanding the general premise of this thread: A stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it because the rules state that doesn't count as a dribble.)

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Probably what he means is throwing the ball off the opponent's backboard or an official. Of course, the rules book states that both of those are treated the same as contacting the floor, so he is just being picky.

ART. 4 A ball which touches a player or an official is the same as the ball
touching the floor at that individual’s location.
ART. 5 A ball which touches the front faces or edges of the backboard is
treated the same as touching the floor inbounds; see also 4-15-1.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

... the ball must bounce before a moving player may touch it again because it isn't a legal dribble if it doesn't.

4.15.4 SITUATION D: While dribbling: (a) A1 bats the ball over the head of an
opponent, runs around the opponent, bats the ball to the floor and continues to
dribble; RULING: Violation in (a), because the ball was touched twice by A1’s
hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

ART. 2 During a dribble the ball may be batted into the air provided it is
permitted to strike the floor before the ball is touched again with the hand(s).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

A stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it because the rules state that doesn't count as a dribble.)

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.15.4 SITUATION D ... because the ball was touched twice by A1’s hand(s) during a dribble, before it touched the floor.

I know that both of these statements are 100% true, but I can't find a citation for either.

Where does it state that stationary player may toss the ball into the air and catch it?

Where does it state that the ball may not be touched twice by the hands during a dribble? Is it this: The dribble ends when: c. The dribbler simultaneously touches the ball with both hands? But the twice touch doesn't have to be simultaneous, does it? Can't it just be twice before the ball hits the floor?

In don't remember failing Basketball Rules 100. Let me check my transcript. I may have to go to summer school. Yikes.