End of game questions

[Damian]

The situation:
A is down by 3 points and has the ball with time running out. A1 takes a running 3 point shot. B1 attempts to setup defensively but doesn't get into a legal guarding position.

a) Shot is released, horn sounds, then as an airborne shooter A crashes into B before returning to floor. Shot goes in or misses.

b) Shot begins but is not released, horn sounds, ball is released, then A crashes into B as an airborne shooter. Shot is good or misses.

I looked up the definitions and have some theories, but would like your interpretations. BYW I am using NFHS rules.

[ChuckElias]

Ok, you say that the defense doesn't get set in time, so I'm assuming that if there's any foul call to be made, it's against the defender. If the foul is on the shooter, in either situation, then it's a player control foul; the ball is dead immediately, no points can be scored on the try, and the game is over.

Originally posted by Damian
a) Shot is released, horn sounds, then as an airborne shooter A crashes into B before returning to floor. Shot goes in or misses.

This is a foul against the defender while A1 is in the act of shooting. So if the shot goes in, score it and shoot one FT with nobody on the lane. If the FT is good, game over. If it misses, we have OT.

If the 3-point shot misses, then shoot 3 FTs with nobody on the lane. If all 3 FTs are made, we have OT. As soon as A1 misses one of the FTs, the game is over.

b) Shot begins but is not released, horn sounds, ball is released, then A crashes into B as an airborne shooter. Shot is good or misses.

You say "shot begins", so we have A1 in the act of shooting. But since the ball has not been released on the try, the horn causes the ball to become dead. Therefore, the contact by B1 is ignored, and the game is over. See Exception 3 included in Rule 6-7.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Damian
The situation:
A is down by 3 points and has the ball with time running out. A1 takes a running 3 point shot. B1 attempts to setup defensively but doesn't get into a legal guarding position.

a) Shot is released, horn sounds, then as an airborne shooter A crashes into B before returning to floor. Shot goes in or misses.

b) Shot begins but is not released, horn sounds, ball is released, then A crashes into B as an airborne shooter. Shot is good or misses.

I looked up the definitions and have some theories, but would like your interpretations. BYW I am using NFHS rules.

a) shot counts if good, foul counts, up to three shots, or one shot. If no overtime, you and your partner get the heck out of Dodge City.

b) ball dead at horn, game over. You and your partner get the heck out of Dodge City.

[Edited by rainmaker on Oct 10th, 2003 at 09:25 AM]

[Damian]

The horn sounds before the ball is released, so no shot can count. Does the airborne shooter lose his rights at the horn? He is fouled before he comes down on the shot. But the game is over.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Damian
The horn sounds before the ball is released, so no shot can count. Does the airborne shooter lose his rights at the horn? He is fouled before he comes down on the shot. But the game is over.

If the ball is not released when the horn sounds, the ball becomes dead at the horn, the foul doesn't count and the game is over. If the ball IS released when the horn sounds, the ball remains live until the shot is made, or will clearly not make it. If you can't tell whether the horn or the release came first, you've got to call it one way or the other, and then go with it. And when the game IS over, you and your partner get the heck out of Dodge City.

[rainmaker]

Does anyone know why Jurassic Referee's replies in this thread keep appearing, and then disappearing? Has he moved into the twilight zone?

[mdray]

so, once the horn goes, if the ball is still in the shooter's hand, the ball is dead and no foul can be called? Even if the shooter clearly got fouled before releasing the ball?? (I know this is not quite the sitch described above) I must be having a brain cramp on this one.

[Hawks Coach]

Of course, you left out the third situation. A1 airborne, contact with B1, horn sounds, and ball released. Now the cpontact is called because it came before the horn, even though shot came after the horn.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by mdray
so, once the horn goes, if the ball is still in the shooter's hand, the ball is dead and no foul can be called? Even if the shooter clearly got fouled before releasing the ball?? (I know this is not quite the sitch described above) I must be having a brain cramp on this one.

See Rule 6-7-Exception-3:" The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends when...a foul is committed by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight... "

In other words, the ball is dead when the horn sounds, and a foul committed during a dead ball is ignored (unless it is flagrant or technical).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Does anyone know why Jurassic Referee's replies in this thread keep appearing, and then disappearing? Has he moved into the twilight zone?

If you're doing a great job answering the questions,there's no reason for me say basically the same thing,is there?

Keep up the fair work. You've got a great future behind you!

Didn't attach a smiley.Wonder how many people thought I was serious on the last one?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
If you're doing a great job answering the questions,there's no reason for me say basically the same thing,is there?

It doesn't stop anyone else, when YOU"RE doing a great job. I think it's called "reverb".

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

See Rule 6-7-Exception-3:" The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends when...a foul is committed by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight... "

In other words, the ball is dead when the horn sounds, and a foul committed during a dead ball is ignored (unless it is flagrant or technical). [/B][/QUOTE]Rule 4-19-1NOTE. You left out "or by or on an airborne shooter",if I remember right,which certainly could be pertinent also.

Comments,anyone?

[Ref in PA]

I had that situation about 3 years ago. Girl driving for the basket, foul called, horn blows, ball released, ball goes in. Since the ball was released after the horn, the basket was waived off. The girl was sent to the line with no one on the lane for two shots. Didn't get any argument from coaches. Hope I made the right call.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

See Rule 6-7-Exception-3:" The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends when...a foul is committed by an opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight... "

In other words, the ball is dead when the horn sounds, and a foul committed during a dead ball is ignored (unless it is flagrant or technical). [/B]

Rule 4-19-1NOTE. You left out "or by or on an airborne shooter",if I remember right,which certainly could be pertinent also.

Comments,anyone? [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think he's an airborne shooter, if the ball is dead before he leaves the ground. 4-1-1 says, "An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor." If the ball is dead before he leaves the ground, he's not "try"-ing anymore, is he?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Rule 4-19-1NOTE. You left out "or by or on an airborne shooter",if I remember right,which certainly could be pertinent also.

Comments,anyone? [/B]

I don't think he's an airborne shooter, if the ball is dead before he leaves the ground. 4-1-1 says, "An airborne shooter is a player who has released the ball on a try for a goal or has tapped the ball and has not returned to the floor." If the ball is dead before he leaves the ground, he's not "try"-ing anymore, is he?
[/B][/QUOTE]From Damian's initial post that started this thread:

(b)"...then A crashes into B as an airborne shooter"

The complete wording of R4-19-1NOTE that Chuck is referring to in his answer is "Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant or is committed by or on an airborne shooter".

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 10th, 2003 at 12:37 PM]