The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #106 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 09, 2018, 08:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 369
The first part of my post was (mostly) kidding. What was meant seriously is what criteria should I use to make preferences between one side or the other. JRut, how did YOU choose between MBB and WBB? Was there an aspect of one game, or another that appealed to you?
Reply With Quote
  #107 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 09, 2018, 08:40pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
The first part of my post was (mostly) kidding. What was meant seriously is what criteria should I use to make preferences between one side or the other. JRut, how did YOU choose between MBB and WBB? Was there an aspect of one game, or another that appealed to you?
You choose like you do anything else, you make a choice and pursue that choice. You decide what camps you want to go to and you pay for them. They are often expensive so it is better to make a choice that you will be comfortable with. Seriously, this is not that complicated. For me it was simply what I followed I wanted to be apart of. I never saw myself working women's college basketball let alone girl's basketball.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #108 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 10, 2018, 07:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 16,776
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
That's some messed up version of affirmative action at work there :X. If women's coaches don't want men's officials on their games, then good female officials will be less able to work men's basketball, and the discouraging status quo of officials being assigned by gender will continue :sad. This will suck for officials who are on the fence/ have no preference as well. Maybe attitudes will change in a few years, but how would one choose, while a choice still needs to be made?
a) Your logic doesn't follow.

b) You need to make a personal choice (at some point). Because it's personal, no one here can tell you how to decide, or even what all the criteria are. And, because it's several years away, you don't need to worry about it yet.
Reply With Quote
  #109 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 02, 2018, 01:01am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
And I know this is hard to believe for some, but women's coaches often do not want officials that work Men's games. We had a D3 assignor that I once worked for that would put people on conference games of both sides. He was fired and one of the reasons I understand that to be the case was because of him not caring who he put on a game regardless of gender. There was also JUCO league that I worked that the assignor would do the same sometimes, that did not go over well in that conference either.

Peace
Why do women's coaches not want officials who work men's games? Are they afraid that their players would be hurt if the officials use the men's standards to officiate women's games (advantage/disadvantage vs automatic calls)? IMO, if an official can keep the differences between high school and college straight, he can keep the NCAAW/NCAAM differences straight. Besides, some states have different rules for boys and girls (NY has girls play by (modified) NCAAW rules, whereas boys play NFHS, and some of the shot clock states (MD,CA,MA,WA) don't have a 10-second count for girls), so if an official came from such a state and had to remember the differences between boys and girls rules and mechanics, what is to say that he can't do the same for men's and women's games at the college level?

I'm not denying that the games are different with respect to rules and mechanics. However, there are many similarities as well (both now use a 30-second shot clock, both discourage rotations late in the shot clock, and there is not an action which is a foul in women's basketball that is legal in men's, or the reverse, different terminology notwithstanding).

For the record, I now have a slight preference for men's basketball, after watching videos of both men's and women's officials in action, and seeing that the men's officials appear to have cleaner mechanics and higher playcalling percentages. But I would not object if I was assigned to work both flavors of college basketball.
Reply With Quote
  #110 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 02, 2018, 05:56am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 16,370
Genders ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
... the games are different ...
Here in Connecticut, with the exception of a different size basketball, boys and girls high school teams use the same rules, and mechanics. Yet, I often have problems adjusting from a Thursday night girls high school varsity game to a Friday night boys high school varsity game. Different speeds, muscular differences, play above, or below, the rim, different ability to play through contact. It takes me a few minutes to get my mind in synch with what's going on on the floor (yet the reverse, boys to girls game, is not a problem for me). I know of many colleagues on my local board that have the same adjustment problem.
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Reply With Quote
  #111 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 02, 2018, 07:26am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 12,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
.... But I would not object if I was assigned to work both flavors of college basketball.
That's not going to happen. You're going to have to make a choice, or a choice will be made for you if/when someone hires you.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #112 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 02, 2018, 07:27am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 28,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Why do women's coaches not want officials who work men's games? Are they afraid that their players would be hurt if the officials use the men's standards to officiate women's games (advantage/disadvantage vs automatic calls)? IMO, if an official can keep the differences between high school and college straight, he can keep the NCAAW/NCAAM differences straight. Besides, some states have different rules for boys and girls (NY has girls play by (modified) NCAAW rules, whereas boys play NFHS, and some of the shot clock states (MD,CA,MA,WA) don't have a 10-second count for girls), so if an official came from such a state and had to remember the differences between boys and girls rules and mechanics, what is to say that he can't do the same for men's and women's games at the college level?

I'm not denying that the games are different with respect to rules and mechanics. However, there are many similarities as well (both now use a 30-second shot clock, both discourage rotations late in the shot clock, and there is not an action which is a foul in women's basketball that is legal in men's, or the reverse, different terminology notwithstanding).

For the record, I now have a slight preference for men's basketball, after watching videos of both men's and women's officials in action, and seeing that the men's officials appear to have cleaner mechanics and higher playcalling percentages. But I would not object if I was assigned to work both flavors of college basketball.
The games are not only different, they are played differently. They are executed differently. The philosophies are different. A high school girls basketball game is very different than high school boys game and why even at that level in my state many people (assignors, coaches, administrators) do not want officials that work both often. And just so you know you are not likely to ever be assigned to both at the college level. Heck, you going to a Men's camp and if you say you work Women's basketball, that might eliminate you from consideration at that camp for assignments.

Again this is one of these things that is not our rule on this site, it is one that has been well established before many of us started or the way it was in our careers. High school ball may not have that same standard based on where you are at, but I work entirely a boys basketball schedule in two states and often the better officials work those games consistently. Just the way it is and I doubt that is going to change unless the number of officials just fall off, which they have not in my state. But then again you cannot make officials take games they wish not to work on many levels without consequences.

Peace
__________________
"When the phone does not ring, the assignor is calling."
--Black

Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #113 (permalink)  
Old Thu Aug 02, 2018, 07:18pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 16,370
Only Working Girls ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
... boys basketball schedule in two states and often the better officials work those games consistently.
Agree.

As some of our local guys age, put on few pounds, slow down, or develop leg, and hip, problems (arthritis, etc.), they will often switch from doing both genders to only working girls. Right there, that tells you a little (not a significant number, but enough to skew the curve) about the quality of guys that officiate girls games.

With my patellofemoral pain syndrome in my left knee, and a bone spur, and osteoarthritis in my right ankle (no elective surgery allowed for twenty more months because I'm on blood thinners to keep my stent open), I may fall into that category in a few years, although I have lost twenty-five pounds since my heart attack ten months ago.
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Aug 02, 2018 at 07:22pm.
Reply With Quote
  #114 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 03, 2018, 09:40am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I may fall into that category in a few years, although I have lost twenty-five pounds since my heart attack ten months ago.
Congrats, hope and pray you stay healthy.
Reply With Quote
  #115 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 03, 2018, 03:23pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 16,370
I'm Like The Freaking Six Million Dollar Man ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdoebler View Post
Congrats, hope and pray you stay healthy.
Thanks.

I'm at the gym six days a week, 30 minutes on the treadmill, fast walking pace, steep incline.

I've got three zotarolimus eluting coronary stents in my left anterior descending coronary artery (the infamous widow maker).

Medications include a lipid lowering agent, a platelet aggregation inhibitor, an ACE inhibitor, a beta blocker, and a low dose aspirin.

Scientists have kept me alive by implanting high tech devices in me, with a regime of modern pharmaceuticals.

I'm like the freaking Six Million Dollar Man.



Now, where did I leave my car keys?
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 12:57pm.
Reply With Quote
  #116 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 03, 2018, 04:58pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 369
It's a pity that CT only uses 2-man for anything other than the state playoffs. 3-man would keep BillyMac going for longer, whether at the boys or girls levels. It seems very unfortunate that officials are segregated by gender in NCAA basketball, and that lesser officials usually work women's games as compared to men's games, but it is the way it is. I must thus resign myself to a fate of being exclusively a men's official. I could learn a lot from both games, but I believe that choosing men's basketball would be the better choice long-term. I won't be fast-tracked in women's basketball, and I can learn the NBA mechanics doing pro-am, so women's basketball won't have any real advantages for me.

Last edited by ilyazhito; Sun Aug 05, 2018 at 08:26pm.
Reply With Quote
  #117 (permalink)  
Old Fri Aug 03, 2018, 05:07pm
I got a Basketball Jones!
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Hunger
Posts: 860
Let us know when you get your first WCAC game.

Until that time, save us from further niggling questions. Time for more work and less talk.

Bye!!
__________________
Lah me..
(In honor of Jurassic Ref, R.I.P.)
Reply With Quote
  #118 (permalink)  
Old Sat Aug 04, 2018, 12:08pm
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 16,370
The Land Of Steady Habits ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
It's a pity that CT only uses 2-man for anything other than the state playoffs ...
While the spirit of ilyazhito's post is correct, for the record, some of the major rivalry regular season games will get three person crews (more likely in some local boards other than in my own). All Connecticut quarterfinal state tournament games and beyond, both genders, all levels, get three person crews, as well as those major rivalry games in earlier state tournament rounds.

The most successful (who are often the most vocal) basketball coaches in the Connecticut High School Coaches Association (I'm a former member) don't want three person crews (they believe that too many fouls will be called) for regular season games. School principals, school athletic directors, and the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference (the state interscholastic sports governing body) all listen to the coaches' "lobby" and voilà, mostly two person regular season games. The principals (who mainly run the Connecticut Interscholastic Athletic Conference) and athletic directors don't put up much of a fight because it saves them money. The coaches win, the athletic budgets win, and the sport loses. "Two Out of Three Ain't Bad" (Meat Loaf, 1977).
__________________
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Last edited by BillyMac; Sat Aug 04, 2018 at 02:36pm.
Reply With Quote
  #119 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 05, 2018, 07:08pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Rockville,MD
Posts: 369
Speaking of no 3-person, the belief that officials in a 3-person crew call more fouls is misguided. In my experience, both me and my partners have called less fouls than we would in a 2-person game. It could be that the athletes in games with 3-person crews are better, and more disciplined, and thus commit less fouls, but the main reason is that 3 officials can be in better position to make calls than 2 officials can be, because the primary areas of responsibility are smaller than in 2-person mechanics. This leads to officials guessing less and calling only what is obvious to them in their area. Because they call only the obvious fouls, the games under a 3-person system have less whistles than similar games under a 2-person system.

@justacoach, I have called games in the WCAC (JV girls), so your comment is not very apropos.

I created this thread so that officials on the fence could know some of the differences between men's and women's college basketball, from an officiating perspective, as well as to find out if it were possible to actually work both sexes. Now I know that working both sexes simultaneously is not possible, except maybe at the junior college level. Is this the reason why some JUCO men's officials use women's signals in men's games (counting with 1 hand and making a fist to start the clock, instead of the CCA Men's approved method of raising one hand, counting with the other, and chopping the raised hand)?
Reply With Quote
  #120 (permalink)  
Old Sun Aug 05, 2018, 07:53pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 12,705
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
...Is this the reason why some JUCO men's officials use women's signals in men's games (counting with 1 hand and making a fist to start the clock, instead of the CCA Men's approved method of raising one hand, counting with the other, and chopping the raised hand)?
A lot of officials at all levels do not always do what their respective manuals suggest they should. There are a lot of reasons for that.
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Who will work the NCAA Final this year? secondregionbug Basketball 45 Mon Dec 31, 2007 06:03am
I'm glad I work basketball Junker Basketball 10 Wed Jan 31, 2007 09:26pm
Why I love AAU basketball, a work of fiction Rich Basketball 41 Wed May 24, 2006 02:43am
Whistles' Anonymous Meeting #1: The Battle of the Sexes rainmaker Basketball 71 Mon Apr 04, 2005 03:44pm
High School Official vs NCAA /College Official CLAY Basketball 22 Sat Feb 22, 2003 11:29pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:28am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1