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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 09:53am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
NCAA-M and HS officials do a horrific job in regards to hands on/bumping/riding ball-handlers. I haven't watched enough NCAA-W to know what it is like there, so I'll trust your opinion on that.
I think it is about the same in my observation. I think defenders are doing things that make it very difficult to call because it might not fit the rules that are the automatics. I also feel like there are a lot of ball handlers selling their actions which also makes it difficult to get some consistency sometimes (last night's game for example). I do not think it is widely different. I do think every time a girl or women's basketball player is touched someone wants a foul. I think that is more prevalent in the woman's game than when boys or men are playing.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 12:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I assume (yes, I know what that means) that the officials, as a group, are calling what the coaches / supervisors want, again, as a group.
....
Actually, in both my HS and college games, I hear chirping from coaches about contact on the ball handlers.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 01:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justacoach View Post
MTD:
Stop with the theoretical equal opportunity canned response and get down to the real nitty-gritty as it applies in Ohio and Michigan.

How many officials, who were selected to do Boy's as well as Women's postseason assignments would choose Women's games over Boy's?

or vice versa?

You are certainly in a position to make meaningful comments on these questions. What do you think?


The Ohio Boys' and Girl's Tournament progression is Sectionals, District, Regionals, and Finals. The Officials for the Regionals and Finals are chosen by the State before the Season even starts because an Official cannot work a Regional and a Final in the same year and can only work a Regional or a Final in either Boys' or Girls', not both. An Official can officiate both Sectional and District Tournaments every year and can officiate both Boys' and Girls' Sectionals and District Tournaments every year.

In Ohio, there are two separate lists of tournament officials: One list of Officials for the Boys' Tournament and one list of Officials for the Girls' Tournament and I would venture to say that the vast majority of Tournament Officials are on both lists. Assignments are made based upon the Officials who are available on a given day and the assignments are made starting with the highest rated Officials available for that day; it should be remembered that on any given day the number of officials available will almost certainly out number the number of officials needed. The Officials for the Sectional and District Tournaments are chosen by the TD from the the Tournament List of Officials.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. And now that you have read my follow up comment to your question you can please apologize for the condescending tone of your question in the first place, especially since my response was not canned. As far as Michigan is concerned, I have never paid attention to its procedure because as a resident of Ohio I am automatically not eligible to officiate in its Boys' and Girls' Tournaments.
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Last edited by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.; Tue Apr 03, 2018 at 01:58pm. Reason: Added a P.S.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 04:58pm
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Rules as written

Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post

So (generally), in NCAAW, if you call the arm-bar, no one says anything (except to yell at the player). If you don't call it, the coach yells at you.

But, generally, in NFHS, if you call, it, the coach yells at you. If you don't call it, no one says anything.
THIS.

NCAAW coaches are told that officials will enforce the rules as written. Do I like the fact that minor contact that doesn't necessary affect play is to be called a foul? No. But I'm not charged with injecting my opinion into the adjudication of the rules.

Essentially, the NCAAW rules have eliminated a certain degree of judgment from the game. I have my theories as to why, but this isn't the place to share them.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 07:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Actually, in both my HS and college games, I hear chirping from coaches about contact on the ball handlers.
I don't work many HS games, in fact I try to work as few as possible, but I agree with the statement. However, I would say in my college games, there are very few complaints when the directives regarding contact on ball handlers are enforced, even strictly enforced. In those games I might get the occasional make sure it is called the same way on the other end nonsense, but no real complaints. In HS games on the other hand, the coaches complain when these fouls are not called, and the same coaches complain when these fouls are called.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 07:43pm
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Technically NFHS and NCAAM have also eliminated the same degree of judgment, as well–the “automatics” are the same across all the rulesets.

I guess it’s just that on the men’s side those “absolutes” aren’t “absolute” in application.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 07:44pm
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Actually, if I really want to make a HS coach's head explode, I just start calling illegal screens as I would in my college games. Most of the HS coaches have no idea what the screening rules are and they seem to very rarely enforced by many of the officials in my area.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 09:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
Actually, if I really want to make a HS coach's head explode, I just start calling illegal screens as I would in my college games. Most of the HS coaches have no idea what the screening rules are and they seem to very rarely enforced by many of the officials in my area.
They get over it.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 10:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
I don't work many HS games, in fact I try to work as few as possible, but I agree with the statement. However, I would say in my college games, there are very few complaints when the directives regarding contact on ball handlers are enforced, even strictly enforced. In those games I might get the occasional make sure it is called the same way on the other end nonsense, but no real complaints. In HS games on the other hand, the coaches complain when these fouls are not called, and the same coaches complain when these fouls are called.
Do you work men's or women's college games? If men's then maybe J.D. (Collins) is emphasizing the automatic fouls as much as June (Courteau) is, and the discussion about "absolutes" may be less relevant than originally thought, at least for your conference.

RE: Illegal screens, I haven't seen too many of those in the (sub-varsity) high school games that I have worked, but I have called them in intramural games, especially as the trail or center official when I was off-ball. Perhaps 3-man mechanics allow better coverage of screens than 2 man, but that's a discussion for another post.

Last edited by ilyazhito; Tue Apr 03, 2018 at 10:49pm.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 11:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Do you work men's or women's college games? If men's then maybe J.D. (Collins) is emphasizing the automatic fouls as much as June (Courteau) is, and the discussion about "absolutes" may be less relevant than originally thought, at least for your conference.

RE: Illegal screens, I haven't seen too many of those in the (sub-varsity) high school games that I have worked, but I have called them in intramural games, especially as the trail or center official when I was off-ball. Perhaps 3-man mechanics allow better coverage of screens than 2 man, but that's a discussion for another post.
I work NCAA-M. I have absolutely zero interest in any aspect of women's basketball. I am thankful that I live in a state where you can choose to work just boys, just girls, or both, because if I was forced to do both when I was starting as a HS official, I would have quit long before I made it to college basketball.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 04, 2018, 07:17am
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Is it due to the style of play, or is it due more to expectations of how boys games should be called vs girls games, as JRutledge said? Or is there a different reason?
I'm interested to know, because I don't have a strong preference for either men's or women's basketball yet.

Last edited by ilyazhito; Wed Apr 04, 2018 at 07:48am.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 04, 2018, 07:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Is it due to the style of play, or is it due more to expectations of how boys games should be called vs girls games, as JRutledge said? Or is there a different
I'm interested to know, because I don't have a strong preference for either men's or women's basketball yet.
Taiqua Stewart, MEAC Women's supervisor, worked Men's ball for a year or two back around the turn of the century. If you ever run into her at camp you should ask her about it. I also believe an official name Felicia Grinter worked some Men's ball in SWAC about 10 years ago.

Also, sometime since Y2K there was an official in the Big Sky conference who worked both sides and maybe worked both conference tournaments.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 04, 2018, 08:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Is it due to the style of play, or is it due more to expectations of how boys games should be called vs girls games, as JRutledge said? Or is there a different reason?
I'm interested to know, because I don't have a strong preference for either men's or women's basketball yet.
Unless you are working in majors (and MAYBE some mid-majors), the level of play in women's basketball is just not great. And if you are working DII or below, it's bodies all over the floor every single play, and high pitched screams the entire game after every made basket.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 04, 2018, 09:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Is it due to the style of play, or is it due more to expectations of how boys games should be called vs girls games, as JRutledge said? Or is there a different reason?
I'm interested to know, because I don't have a strong preference for either men's or women's basketball yet.
Again who works women's or men's is not always your personal choice. Just like Raymond pointed out, there are people that have done both, but that is not the norm or their choice. Someone has to hire you first of all and if you are hired with one side, the other side will likely not give you a chance in most areas. I started out as a Women's college official and had to give that up when moving to the Men's side. Many small school supervisors are former or current D1 officials and they tend to not allow people to work a gender if they are working the other side, which means they have to hire you.

Also, the biggest hurdle I see in calling women's ball compared to men's ball is the simple fact that above the rim is very prominent on the men's side and it is hardly there on the women's side. The athleticism is different and the speed of the game can be very different. I know many men's officials that still do high school stop doing girl's basketball alone for that reason. The expectations are different even though people here or in our community often do not want to admit that fact.

Peace
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 04, 2018, 09:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Again who works women's or men's is not always your personal choice. Just like Raymond pointed out, there are people that have done both, but that is not the norm or their choice. Someone has to hire you first of all and if you are hired with one side, the other side will likely not give you a chance in most areas. I started out as a Women's college official and had to give that up when moving to the Men's side. Many small school supervisors are former or current D1 officials and they tend to not allow people to work a gender if they are working the other side, which means they have to hire you.

Also, the biggest hurdle I see in calling women's ball compared to men's ball is the simple fact that above the rim is very prominent on the men's side and it is hardly there on the women's side. The athleticism is different and the speed of the game can be very different. I know many men's officials that still do high school stop doing girl's basketball alone for that reason. The expectations are different even though people here or in our community often do not want to admit that fact.

Peace
The D3 men's officials that work HS for me have been told by their supervisors (not all of them, but more than 1) that they cannot work girls HS hoops.
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