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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 02:39pm
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As a ref, you can get lots of really good experience with recognizing and calling all types of angles, and configurations on "held balls" in girl's/women's games. Lots of held balls and AP arrow action occurs for sure.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 04:03pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kansas Ref View Post
As a ref, you can get lots of really good experience with recognizing and calling all types of angles, and configurations on "held balls" in girl's/women's games. Lots of held balls and AP arrow action occurs for sure.
I agree with that for lower levels, but does this happen in NCAA women's basketball?

Besides experience with held ball situations, are there any advantage to working women's basketball? AFAIK, some women's mechanics are lazy (not stopping the clock on OOB plays, 5-second violations, or 10-second violations; using the fist to start the clock; standing in the lane as the Lead on the first free throw), but some ideas make sense (coming up with one decision on block-charge plays).

Conversely, what are the advantages to working men's basketball? Is there any ideas from the men's game that make sense, or bad mechanics habits that men's officials get into?
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 04:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
I agree with that for lower levels, but does this happen in NCAA women's basketball?

Besides experience with held ball situations, are there any advantage to working women's basketball? AFAIK, some women's mechanics are lazy (not stopping the clock on OOB plays, 5-second violations, or 10-second violations; using the fist to start the clock; standing in the lane as the Lead on the first free throw), but some ideas make sense (coming up with one decision on block-charge plays).

Conversely, what are the advantages to working men's basketball? Is there any ideas from the men's game that make sense, or bad mechanics habits that men's officials get into?
What you call lazy, I call decisive -- a crisp directional point without the "stop clock" mechanic is far better than the stop clock and subsequent point.

Standing on the block on the first free throw -- give me one reason why that's lazy rather than an intelligent mechanics choice. Nothing's happening and it saves steps. Smart.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 06:21pm
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Standing on the block does not put you in a good position to see lane violations or displacement in the lane on free throws. The approved position in the NFHS and CCA Men's Basketball manual does. This is an article that explains more about why you should not stand in the lane as the Lead Lead, They Didn’t Vacate that Lower Lane Space for You to Stand In. See https://www.myvirtualofficialsassociation.com/?p=626 for more information on stopping the clock. The reason why the NFHS and CCA men's manuals require stopping the clock is because the "stop the clock" signal is what technically stops play, as well as reminds the clock operator to stop the clock, and gives the official time to process the play before making a decision.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 06:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Standing on the block does not put you in a good position to see lane violations or displacement in the lane on free throws. The approved position in the NFHS and CCA Men's Basketball manual does. This is an article that explains more about why you should not stand in the lane as the Lead Lead, They Didn’t Vacate that Lower Lane Space for You to Stand In. See https://www.myvirtualofficialsassociation.com/?p=626 for more information on stopping the clock. The reason why the NFHS and CCA men's manuals require stopping the clock is because the "stop the clock" signal is what technically stops play, as well as reminds the clock operator to stop the clock, and gives the official time to process the play before making a decision.
31 years of officiating and almost 20 on this forum and you might be the first person to talk to me like I'm 4 years old.

It's the first of multiple shots. How many violations have you seen or called on the first of multiple shots? You know they don't stand there for the final shot, right?

The whistle stops play. If I blow my whistle and don't raise my hand, does the clock stop? Yes, of course it does.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 06:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
It's the first of multiple shots. How many violations have you seen or called on the first of multiple shots? You know they don't stand there for the final shot, right? The whistle stops play. If I blow my whistle and don't raise my hand, does the clock stop? Yes, of course it does.
As usual here on the Forum, "When in Rome ...".

If it's accepted, and approved, in your area, go for it.

We've got a local board here in Connecticut that allows, in a two person game, the lead, on a front court end line throwin, to bounce the ball across the paint so as to not cause the trail to move across the basket line.

I'm sure that they could find a reason to throw stones at us.

If it makes you happy
It can't be that bad
If it makes you happy
Then why the hell are you so sad?

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 06:46pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
31 years of officiating and almost 20 on this forum and you might be the first person to talk to me like I'm 4 years old.

It's the first of multiple shots. How many violations have you seen or called on the first of multiple shots? You know they don't stand there for the final shot, right?

The whistle stops play. If I blow my whistle and don't raise my hand, does the clock stop? Yes, of course it does.
All those are esthetics. I have no desire to just point on out of bounds plays. Minor issue and almost irrelevant issue. Women's basketball can have that stuff.

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 09:12pm
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My thoughts

I've been following this thread with interest and enjoyment as I do believe the O.P. is being sincere in his interest. As someone that works NCAA-W and high level varsity boys (including significant postseason assignments) I will say this: at the college level, you have to commit. At the high school level, I bounce between genders without issue. My real issue is calling a HS girls game-- I want to call it like a college game but the coaches in our area want it called like we call a boys game (more advantage/disadvantage, fewer absolutes).

One of my mentors several years back said it best: he told me my personality is a better fit for the women's college game...and he's right. I am of the opinion that there is more camaraderie among collegiate women's officials than men's...it is competitive, but not cut throat.

WBB officiating has come a long way in recent years and while gender and race will always play a role in assignments and advancement, the cream always rises to the top...it just might take longer for some compared to others.

A camp clinician said it best: getting here is the easy part, it's staying there that's toughest.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 10:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. View Post
Sports officials registered by the OhioHSAA and MichiganHSAA are independent contractors and are free to accept and decline regular season assignments as one sees fit. An official can choose to officiate only boys' or only girls' or both during the regular season. Officials may choose to be considered for only the boys' tournament or only the girls' tournament or both tournaments as long as they meet the number of games officiated requirement for which ever tournament(s) for which they wish to be considered.

MTD, Sr.
MTD:
Stop with the theoretical equal opportunity canned response and get down to the real nitty-gritty as it applies in Ohio and Michigan.

How many officials, who were selected to do Boy's as well as Women's postseason assignments would choose Women's games over Boy's?

or vice versa?

You are certainly in a position to make meaningful comments on these questions. What do you think?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 10:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
31 years of officiating and almost 20 on this forum and you might be the first person to talk to me like I'm 4 years old.

It's the first of multiple shots. How many violations have you seen or called on the first of multiple shots? You know they don't stand there for the final shot, right?

The whistle stops play. If I blow my whistle and don't raise my hand, does the clock stop? Yes, of course it does.
Rich, I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. You asked me to give you a reason why standing in the lane on free throws is lazy, and I gave you one.

We could go on endlessly about hypotheticals (What if no one hears the whistle, and you have not given the stop-the clock signal?), but JRutledge put it best when he said that "all those are esthetics".

Matt, what made you choose the women's side over the men's side, and why do you say that a women's college game is called in absolutes?
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Apr 02, 2018, 10:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt S. View Post
One of my mentors several years back said it best: he told me my personality is a better fit for the women's college game...and he's right. I am of the opinion that there is more camaraderie among collegiate women's officials than men's...it is competitive, but not cut throat.

WBB officiating has come a long way in recent years and while gender and race will always play a role in assignments and advancement, the cream always rises to the top...it just might take longer for some compared to others.

A camp clinician said it best: getting here is the easy part, it's staying there that's toughest.
Not sure who told you that one? Seriously, it is funny how pure everyone that works women's basketball tries to act. Please, there are so many women's officials that get upset by who works the D1 level and who gets passed over.

Actually, some of my better friends that helped me were Men's D1 officials. There is just more competition because there are more officials trying to get there.

Peace
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 07:51am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich View Post
31 years of officiating and almost 20 on this forum and you might be the first person to talk to me like I'm 4 years old.
that's because the poster is about 4 years old (or at least a lot closer to it than you or I). We all had "all the answers" when we were that age -- we just didn't spam them out to every discussion board.

Quote:
The whistle stops play. If I blow my whistle and don't raise my hand, does the clock stop? Yes, of course it does.
And, no timer ever looks for the raised hand before stopping the clock.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 07:55am
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Originally Posted by ilyazhito View Post
Matt, what made you choose the women's side over the men's side, and why do you say that a women's college game is called in absolutes?
Not to speak for Matt, but it's because of the emphasis and evaluation placed on the "absolute" fouls listed in the rule book. These are (about) the same in NCAAM/NCAAW/NFHS but are called more strictly in NCAAW (at least as opposed to NFHS -- I haven't watched enough NCAAM to know for sure). If two hands go on, NCAAW wants a foul called -- and the pre-season and in-season videos reflect that.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 08:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Not to speak for Matt, but it's because of the emphasis and evaluation placed on the "absolute" fouls listed in the rule book. These are (about) the same in NCAAM/NCAAW/NFHS but are called more strictly in NCAAW (at least as opposed to NFHS -- I haven't watched enough NCAAM to know for sure). If two hands go on, NCAAW wants a foul called -- and the pre-season and in-season videos reflect that.
NCAA-M and HS officials do a horrific job in regards to hands on/bumping/riding ball-handlers. I haven't watched enough NCAA-W to know what it is like there, so I'll trust your opinion on that.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Tue Apr 03, 2018, 09:51am
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
NCAA-M and HS officials do a horrific job in regards to hands on/bumping/riding ball-handlers. I haven't watched enough NCAA-W to know what it is like there, so I'll trust your opinion on that.
I assume (yes, I know what that means) that the officials, as a group, are calling what the coaches / supervisors want, again, as a group.

So (generally), in NCAAW, if you call the arm-bar, no one says anything (except to yell at the player). If you don't call it, the coach yells at you.

But, generally, in NFHS, if you call, it, the coach yells at you. If you don't call it, no one says anything.
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