Incomplete Rule?

[ChuckS]

Rule 9-1 (Penalties {4}) does not address this situation: A1 at the line, B1, not in a lane space, crosses the 3-pt line early, followed by A2, in a lane space, entering the lane early. And I don't see a case play addressing this - any ideas?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Rule 9-1 (Penalties {4}) does not address this situation: A1 at the line, B1, not in a lane space, crosses the 3-pt line early, followed by A2, in a lane space, entering the lane early. And I don't see a case play addressing this - any ideas?

I agree it's missing. Treat it as if it were one of the examples (or, perhaps, as if no examples were needed) in that Penalty section.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

Rule 9-1 (Penalties {4}) does not address this situation: A1 at the line, B1, not in a lane space, crosses the 3-pt line early, followed by A2, in a lane space, entering the lane early. And I don't see a case play addressing this - any ideas?

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree it's missing. Treat it as if it were one of the examples (or, perhaps, as if no examples were needed) in that Penalty section.

This play has provided Mark, Jr., and I with hours and hours of conversation as we have traveled to games together.

I am in the vet's office (my family thought they were going to have to put me down, LOL!) with our dog.

I do not have access to my Rules Books but over the years the three Rules Committee has rewritten the rule from a simple rule to apply: If B1 violates first followed by a violation by A2, we had Jump Ball (AP Arrow today); very simple and elegant. Now we have multiple scenarios in which one needs to be at least a Structural Engineer (like me) or a Mechanical Engineering student (like Junior) to decipher the rule.

I base my Ruling of going to the AP Arrow based upon the history of the Rule, making the AP Arrow the only logical choice.

MTD, Sr.

[SNIPERBBB]

AP is only for simultaneous violation or 2nd violation by free thrower or his/her teammate behind the 3 pt line.

But for the life of me...I dont think I can remember EVER having a violation by nonmarked space opponent before the shot is released, or could see it happening without a fake from the free thrower.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

AP is only for simultaneous violation or 2nd violation by free thrower or his/her teammate behind the 3 pt line.

But for the life of me...I dont think I can remember EVER having a violation by nonmarked space opponent before the shot is released, or could see it happening without a fake from the free thrower.

You have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) had a Player located outside of the Three-Point Arc try to time his entry into the area inside the Three-Point Arc to happen just after Shooter releases his/her FTA?

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

AP is only for simultaneous violation or 2nd violation by free thrower or his/her teammate behind the 3 pt line.

Yes. And "ignore the second violation is ONLY if both are in a marked lane space.

So, the OP is not covered. Use 2-3. I recommend using the arrow. I also agree it's not likely to happen.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

But for the life of me...I dont think I can remember EVER having a violation by nonmarked space opponent before the shot is released...

Clearly you work higher-level games than I!

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

You have never (with apologies to the late J. Dallas Shirley) had a Player located outside of the Three-Point Arc try to time his entry into the area inside the Three-Point Arc to happen just after Shooter releases his/her FTA?

MTD, Sr.

Not since they restricted them to entering after the ball hits the rim.

[Bob Martin]

I would go with a double violation penalty.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Not since they restricted them to entering after the ball hits the rim.

Mark, Jr., and I have had players as high up as the JV level try it since the rule was changed. Players do not think!

MTD, Sr.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Yes. And "ignore the second violation is ONLY if both are in a marked lane space.

So, the OP is not covered. Use 2-3. I recommend using the arrow. I also agree it's not likely to happen.

I’d be more inclined to treat in order of ocuurance. The delayed dead ball from B doesn’t cause the ball to become dead immediately. The violation from A does make the ball dead immediately. I’d give ball to B and move on....

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

This play has provided Mark, Jr., and I with hours and hours of conversation as we have traveled to games together.

I am in the vet's office (my family thought they were going to have to put me down, LOL!) with our dog.

I do not have access to my Rules Books but over the years the three Rules Committee has rewritten the rule from a simple rule to apply: If B1 violates first followed by a violation by A2, we had Jump Ball (AP Arrow today); very simple and elegant. Now we have multiple scenarios in which one needs to be at least a Structural Engineer (like me) or a Mechanical Engineering student (like Junior) to decipher the rule.

I base my Ruling of going to the AP Arrow based upon the history of the Rule, making the AP Arrow the only logical choice.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by Bob Martin

I would go with a double violation penalty.

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

I’d be more inclined to treat in order of ocuurance. The delayed dead ball from B doesn’t cause the ball to become dead immediately. The violation from A does make the ball dead immediately. I’d give ball to B and move on....

Kelvin:

As noted earlier, as the three Rules Committees made this Rule more complicated, but trying to codify every possible scenario, the Committees forgot to include the Play we are discussing. Until the Committees either add this scenario to the Rules and assign a Penalty to it or the Committees could do the logical thing and turn the clock back 45 years or so and make the Rule simple (see the red highlighted sentence in my above comment) again: Which is the Ruling that Bob and I think would be the logical Ruling (great minds think alike).

MTD, Sr.

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Kelvin:

As noted earlier, as the three Rules Committees made this Rule more complicated, but trying to codify every possible scenario, the Committees forgot to include the Play we are discussing. Until the Committees either add this scenario to the Rules and assign a Penalty to it or the Committees could do the logical thing and turn the clock back 45 years or so and make the Rule simple (see the red highlighted sentence in my above comment) again: Which is the Ruling that Bob and I think would be the logical Ruling (great minds think alike).

MTD, Sr.

You’re right about the committee screwing up this rule. And I agree we need to go back to simple....

[Camron Rust]

Double violation. B's delayed violation is still a violation. It doesn't go away just because A violates too. A's makes the ball dead. This is no different than B violating and the shooter subsequently violating.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

AP is only for simultaneous violation or 2nd violation by free thrower or his/her teammate behind the 3 pt line.

Why would this NOT be a simultaneous violation? How is it different from B1 entering the lane early, followed by A1's try failing to hit the rim?