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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 07:08pm
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Post Game Feedback thoughts

So had this feedback given to me on Friday and I've spent some time chewing on it over the course of the weekend. Wanted to get the board's thoughts.

Friday night game (BV 3 man crew) I ended up in front of visiting team coach, who was frustrated most of the night, with about a minute left in the game says some magic words that earned himself a T. Game at that time was a 15+ point game and he was losing.

In the locker room post-game the R on the game offered some feedback. He indicated at that point in the game given the visiting coach was losing big, playing badly, that barring some truly demonstrative action the whole gym could see would be to pass on the T. Reason being is no need to rub salt in the wound and possibly save it for another time you have the coach. The R is a very good official and has officiated several 6A final games (highest level in our state). It wasn't a criticism by any means but just a line of thinking for me to consider.

At the post-game watering hole i asked a different official who I often bounce stuff off on and he agreed, but noted it was always situational. His logic was he uses a T as a tool, not a weapon, and he wouldn't validate the coaches gripes in that situation by giving him one. He also knew of the coaches antics from earlier in the season and felt the T was probably warranted based his history with the team, how he knows I call the game and deal with coaches.

The question I have the board is do you agree with this line of thinking? Not necessarily looking for whether the T is warranted as is often discussed here everyone has a different threshold. What I'm curious about is the theory to consider not giving a coach in that situation to avoid the 'salt in the wound'.

As I thought this weekend about this feedback I think there may be some validity to this feedback, but not necessarily for this game. For example, coach received a bench warning in the 3Q for an asinine comment to me and his bench had been more vocal that it should have been in the 2H. It died down after the bench warning or at least while I was near it for the rest of the game. He had been borderline for most of the game which prompted the warning and his players had been pretty undisciplined (mirrored the coach IMO) as I ended up giving a T to one of his players earlier in the game.

The T was just for a comment that only I was going to hear. It wasn't a goofball action or words the whole gym could hear.

I could see myself passing on the T if I hadn't heard anything from the bench prior to the late game comment (and I've done this in the past), but in this case, given what preceded in the game, is why I called it. Any thoughts with the feedback? Yea or nay? Situational? Just curious about everyone's thoughts...
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Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 07:21pm
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IMHO there is no “right” answer to this, just different approaches. And in the different approaches, the details matter.

You didn’t tell us what he actually said. I think you can pass on some borderline stuff, but that doesn’t mean you let him say whatever he wants—there are still lines. You said he used “Magic words.” That suggests to me that he made an overly personal comment. For me, unless I can legitimately pretend I didn’t hear it, I don’t think it should be ignored. So if he said the kinds of things I think of are implying, I think the T was probably the better choice.

(From a soccer ref and basketball dad.)
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 08:29pm
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I agree a lot with So Cal, but to answer your question in general, yes, I tend to give a coach who is taking a thumping a little more leash than usual. Now with that said, this is typically in the circumstance where I can tell his anger is being misplaced, and he is really just frustrated. If I'm able to lend an ear for him to vent, sometimes that's all they really need. But as has been stated, totally situational.
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Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 08:34pm
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Look at it this way...

It's better that he got the technical foul in a game he had no shot of winning anyway, and in doing so is taught a lesson about what is and isn't acceptable when speaking to or dealing with officials, than if you or another official had to deal with him in a close game where a technical foul may very well decide the outcome.

I like to think about how my actions affect my partners, and the officials those coaches and players encounter later. Like making sure to enforce the fashion police rules so future officials don't have to hear "well the ref in the last game allowed us to wear red undershirts with our home whites".
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Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 08:35pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
I agree a lot with So Cal, but to answer your question in general, yes, I tend to give a coach who is taking a thumping a little more leash than usual. Now with that said, this is typically in the circumstance where I can tell his anger is being misplaced, and he is really just frustrated. If I'm able to lend an ear for him to vent, sometimes that's all they really need. But as has been stated, totally situational.
I agree with this, but just understand that there is a line that should not be crossed no matter what the score of the game is. Which I think is what frezer meant by the "totally situational" thing.
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Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 08:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BryanV21 View Post
where a technical foul may very well decide the outcome.
Technical fouls never decide the outcome of a game. As was discussed last week, games are decided by all the shots and fouls and turnovers, etc. in all 32 minutes.
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Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 08:51pm
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Maybe a good opportunity to issue a book warning. It addresses the behavior, but doesn't "rub salt in the wound".

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Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 08:51pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Technical fouls never decide the outcome of a game. As was discussed last week, games are decided by all the shots and fouls and turnovers, etc. in all 32 minutes.
In the grand scheme of things... You're right. I should have clarified that comment better.

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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 08:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Maybe a good opportunity to issue a book warning. It addresses the behavior, but doesn't "rub salt in the wound".

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrStBballRef View Post
So had this feedback given to me on Friday and I've spent some time chewing on it over the course of the weekend. Wanted to get the board's thoughts.

Friday night game (BV 3 man crew) I ended up in front of visiting team coach, who was frustrated most of the night, with about a minute left in the game says some magic words that earned himself a T. Game at that time was a 15+ point game and he was losing.

In the locker room post-game the R on the game offered some feedback. He indicated at that point in the game given the visiting coach was losing big, playing badly, that barring some truly demonstrative action the whole gym could see would be to pass on the T. Reason being is no need to rub salt in the wound and possibly save it for another time you have the coach. The R is a very good official and has officiated several 6A final games (highest level in our state). It wasn't a criticism by any means but just a line of thinking for me to consider.

At the post-game watering hole i asked a different official who I often bounce stuff off on and he agreed, but noted it was always situational. His logic was he uses a T as a tool, not a weapon, and he wouldn't validate the coaches gripes in that situation by giving him one. He also knew of the coaches antics from earlier in the season and felt the T was probably warranted based his history with the team, how he knows I call the game and deal with coaches.

The question I have the board is do you agree with this line of thinking? Not necessarily looking for whether the T is warranted as is often discussed here everyone has a different threshold. What I'm curious about is the theory to consider not giving a coach in that situation to avoid the 'salt in the wound'.

As I thought this weekend about this feedback I think there may be some validity to this feedback, but not necessarily for this game. For example, coach received a bench warning in the 3Q for an asinine comment to me and his bench had been more vocal that it should have been in the 2H. It died down after the bench warning or at least while I was near it for the rest of the game. He had been borderline for most of the game which prompted the warning and his players had been pretty undisciplined (mirrored the coach IMO) as I ended up giving a T to one of his players earlier in the game.

The T was just for a comment that only I was going to hear. It wasn't a goofball action or words the whole gym could hear.

I could see myself passing on the T if I hadn't heard anything from the bench prior to the late game comment (and I've done this in the past), but in this case, given what preceded in the game, is why I called it. Any thoughts with the feedback? Yea or nay? Situational? Just curious about everyone's thoughts...
Already gave one.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Sun Feb 11, 2018, 08:59pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 View Post
Already gave one.
Okay, nevermind.

If he's been warned already and he said something that is really out of line, then he's earned it in my opinion, no matter what the time and score.

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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Feb 12, 2018, 06:46am
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Need more details man, what exactly did he say both times to earn the warning and later tech?
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Old Mon Feb 12, 2018, 08:52am
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The feedback you received is useful advice, but, as you already recognize, it's just an alternative, another technique in our refereeing repertoire, not an iron-clad rule to be applied in every situation.

On the first day of law school, you learn that the answer to every question is, "It depends." That is, the circumstances and facts are important.
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Old Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:13am
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So you T'd the coach and had already T'd one of his players. Were you also the one who issued the bench warning?

Not that there's anything wrong with all three, but where were your partners in this thing? Are they shrinking violets, totally out to lunch or the types of absentee partners who use the "I never let that stuff get to me" attitude as code for "I'm too much of a p***y to deal with unsporting behavior"?
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Old Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:16am
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Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Need more details man, what exactly did he say both times to earn the warning and later tech?
In the first quarter I issued a delay of game to the home team for grabbing the ball after a basket, walking 3-4 steps, turning around and then rolling it back to the visiting team. Easy call.

For whatever reason the visiting team was fixated on the delay of game call in general for rest of the game.

In the 3Q I was administering a throw in right beside home team's bench. Visiting player is reaching over the line and before I give the ball to the home team I step in and caution him to not reach over the line. He takes a couple of steps back, but then proceeds to reach over the line after I bounced the ball to the thrower. I blow the whistle for the DOG warning. Visiting team coach then yells loud enough for the entire gym to hear "Come on man let them play basketball!!" Blow my whistle and administer the bench warning.

One of his players earns a T from me for clapping at me after I blow a foul on his teammate in the 4Q. Easy call.

What earned the coaches T was with about a minute left, white team had just scored. Home team player was in the air as the ball was coming through the net and as he was heading down the ball bounced up, hit him in the chest and rolled out of bounds towards the baseline. Player couldn't avoid hitting the ball after it went through etc...definitely not an DOG.

Coach asks as I'm running by, going into the C position, why it wasn't a DOG (he had asked for the DOG a couple times prior to this) and I explain it as he didn't intentionally hit it and therefore it wasn't a penalty. Coach then says to me "Ahh you don't know what it is!" Emphasis added for the tone in which I heard it.
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Old Mon Feb 12, 2018, 11:22am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrStBballRef View Post
In the first quarter I issued a delay of game to the home team for grabbing the ball after a basket, walking 3-4 steps, turning around and then rolling it back to the visiting team. Easy call.

For whatever reason the visiting team was fixated on the delay of game call in general for rest of the game.

In the 3Q I was administering a throw in right beside home team's bench. Visiting player is reaching over the line and before I give the ball to the home team I step in and caution him to not reach over the line. He takes a couple of steps back, but then proceeds to reach over the line after I bounced the ball to the thrower. I blow the whistle for the DOG warning. Visiting team coach then yells loud enough for the entire gym to hear "Come on man let them play basketball!!" Blow my whistle and administer the bench warning.

One of his players earns a T from me for clapping at me after I blow a foul on his teammate in the 4Q. Easy call.

What earned the coaches T was with about a minute left, white team had just scored. Home team player was in the air as the ball was coming through the net and as he was heading down the ball bounced up, hit him in the chest and rolled out of bounds towards the baseline. Player couldn't avoid hitting the ball after it went through etc...definitely not an DOG.

Coach asks as I'm running by, going into the C position, why it wasn't a DOG (he had asked for the DOG a couple times prior to this) and I explain it as he didn't intentionally hit it and therefore it wasn't a penalty. Coach then says to me "Ahh you don't know what it is!" Emphasis added for the tone in which I heard it.
Nevermind, I'm an idiot. Didn't notice it was visitor and home in the two examples.

I don't think that's enough for me to drag the game out any longer. I probably would've just said to him "Knock it off."
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