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Old Sat Jan 13, 2018, 10:01am
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Who shoots?

If B1 face guards A1 to the level of a technical foul does A1 shoot or does the coach pick anyone?

If B1 throws a punch at A1 and misses does A1 shoot or does anyone?

Any rules reference will be appreciated.
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Old Sat Jan 13, 2018, 10:18am
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Rule 8-3 allows any player to shoot the free throws for a technical foul. In your first situation, that is the case. For the punch, it will be flagrant, but it depends on when the punch occurred:

Live ball - flagrant personal foul, DQ, A1 shoots
Dead ball - flagrant T, DQ, any player on team A shoots
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Old Sat Jan 13, 2018, 10:32am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckS View Post
Rule 8-3 allows any player to shoot the free throws for a technical foul. In your first situation, that is the case. For the punch, it will be flagrant, but it depends on when the punch occurred:

Live ball - flagrant personal foul, DQ, A1 shoots
Dead ball - flagrant T, DQ, any player on team A shoots
If the punch doesn’t land it’s a flagrant T regardless of whether the ball is live or dead. Personal fouls require contact, and that doesn’t change just because it’s a punch.
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Old Sat Jan 13, 2018, 12:03pm
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Fighting is a flagrant technical foul regardless of contact. So a swing and a miss is treated the same as if you throw a punch and connect.

Anyone can shoot technicals that are eligible to play in the game.

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Old Tue Jan 16, 2018, 01:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Fighting is a flagrant technical foul regardless of contact. So a swing and a miss is treated the same as if you throw a punch and connect.

Anyone can shoot technicals that are eligible to play in the game.

Peace
I'm not sure this is correct - if the punch occurs while the ball is live -- the rulebook language is that fighting is a flagrant "act".

There is also this case play from a few years back
10.4.5 SITUATION A: Post-players A1 and B1 begin punching each other and
play is stopped. Two substitutes from each team leave the bench area and come onto the court. The four substitutes: (a) do not become involved in the fight; (b)all become involved in the fight; or (c) substitutes A6, A7, and B6 do not participate in the fight, but B7 becomes involved in the fight. RULING: A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant fouls and are disqualified, but no free throws result from the double personal flagrant fouls...
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2018, 01:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
I'm not sure this is correct - if the punch occurs while the ball is live -- the rulebook language is that fighting is a flagrant "act".

There is also this case play from a few years back
10.4.5 SITUATION A: Post-players A1 and B1 begin punching each other and
play is stopped. Two substitutes from each team leave the bench area and come onto the court. The four substitutes: (a) do not become involved in the fight; (b)all become involved in the fight; or (c) substitutes A6, A7, and B6 do not participate in the fight, but B7 becomes involved in the fight. RULING: A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant fouls and are disqualified, but no free throws result from the double personal flagrant fouls...
And then you have this...
Quote:
Rule 10, SECTION 3 PLAYER TECHNICAL
A player shall not:
ART. 8 . . . Be charged with fighting.
And that is without any qualification about the status of the ball.

At best, the rules are contradictory here. There are two competing rules.....the one that says live ball contact is a personal foul and another that says that fighting is a technical foul. The situation above does imply that the personal rule takes precedence but that is only by interpretation, not by rule. I have no problem with that interpretation. It has to be one or the other and the distinction is not likely to matter. The player is DQ'd either way. If it involves two players (and most fights do), there is no practical difference. Even if it involves one player, the only differences that really matters is who shoots the FT. The throwin spot will differ but that isn't likely to matter as much.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2018, 02:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
I'm not sure this is correct - if the punch occurs while the ball is live -- the rulebook language is that fighting is a flagrant "act".

There is also this case play from a few years back
10.4.5 SITUATION A: Post-players A1 and B1 begin punching each other and
play is stopped. Two substitutes from each team leave the bench area and come onto the court. The four substitutes: (a) do not become involved in the fight; (b)all become involved in the fight; or (c) substitutes A6, A7, and B6 do not participate in the fight, but B7 becomes involved in the fight. RULING: A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant fouls and are disqualified, but no free throws result from the double personal flagrant fouls...
The late great Jurassic Referee and I took opposite sides of this same argument several years ago. Couple of problems with this: First, it says they are punching each other. Did they punch at the exact same time? If not, then certainly the first contact would cause the ball to be dead, so.....

More importantly, this case play is not even about personal fouls, but rather about the substitutes leaving the bench.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2018, 02:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
I'm not sure this is correct - if the punch occurs while the ball is live -- the rulebook language is that fighting is a flagrant "act".

There is also this case play from a few years back
10.4.5 SITUATION A: Post-players A1 and B1 begin punching each other and
play is stopped. Two substitutes from each team leave the bench area and come onto the court. The four substitutes: (a) do not become involved in the fight; (b)all become involved in the fight; or (c) substitutes A6, A7, and B6 do not participate in the fight, but B7 becomes involved in the fight. RULING: A1 and B1 are charged with flagrant fouls and are disqualified, but no free throws result from the double personal flagrant fouls...
I do not know what I said was incorrect. Fighting is a flagrant act. The rule on fighting is mostly referenced in Rule 10 with the descriptions of technical fouls and makes no distinction if contact takes place or not.

And the Rule 4 definitions says clearly (Rule 4-18)

Quote:
Fighting is a flagrant act and can occur when the ball is dead or live. Fighting includes, but is not limited to combative acts such as

Art. 1...An attempt to strick, punch or kick by using fist, hands, arms, legs, feet regardless of where contact is made.

Art. 2...An attempt to instigate a fight by committing an unsporting act that causes a person to retaliate by fighting.
Seems pretty clear to me.

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Old Tue Jan 16, 2018, 02:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not know what I said was incorrect. Fighting is a flagrant act. The rule on fighting is mostly referenced in Rule 10 with the descriptions of technical fouls and makes no distinction if contact takes place or not.

And the Rule 4 definitions says clearly (Rule 4-18)

Seems pretty clear to me.

Peace
There is certainly some lack of clarity as to whether or not a player who punches an opponent during a live ball has committed a flagrant personal foul or a flagrant technical foul. I can see now both interpretations, but as was stated the distinction is minor and also unlikely.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2018, 02:57pm
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Interesting.

So fighting where contact is made while the ball is live may, in theory, be an exception to the premise that "all live ball contact is a personal foul." I never thought of it this way until I saw the Rule 10 reference.

The difference between a flagrant T and flagrant personal being the shooter and where the throw-in takes place.

NCAA-W made this easy by going to the "disqualifying foul" designation this year.
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2018, 03:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
There is certainly some lack of clarity as to whether or not a player who punches an opponent during a live ball has committed a flagrant personal foul or a flagrant technical foul. I can see now both interpretations, but as was stated the distinction is minor and also unlikely.
I have never tried to split hairs here. Fighting has been clearly stated as a technical foul. It is like in football where many unsporting acts are treated as a dead ball regardless if they happen during a live ball. Unless there was an interpretation that told me otherwise, it would not matter to me.

Peace
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Old Tue Jan 16, 2018, 05:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HokiePaul View Post
There is certainly some lack of clarity as to whether or not a player who punches an opponent during a live ball has committed a flagrant personal foul or a flagrant technical foul. I can see now both interpretations, but as was stated the distinction is minor and also unlikely.
When I am the R:

Live ball punch or kick which makes contact = flagrant personal foul
Live ball punch or kick which fails to make contact = flagrant technical foul

I believe that the Case Book clarifies the broad statement in the Rules Book for fighting.
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