The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 24, 2017, 07:20pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 54
Play two? Foul on defender. Are we to believe a shooter might have to freeze in a step back posture because the defender fell for a shot fake and jumped toward the shooter? Shooter can't even stand up straight? Although not precisely the same....this previous discussion worked this play over pretty well.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...nder-move.html
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 24, 2017, 07:55pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmcramer View Post
Play two? Foul on defender. Are we to believe a shooter might have to freeze in a step back posture because the defender fell for a shot fake and jumped toward the shooter? Shooter can't even stand up straight? Although not precisely the same....this previous discussion worked this play over pretty well.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...nder-move.html
The defender did not jump into the shooter.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 24, 2017, 11:07pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,804
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
We are there to call obvious fouls. I don't think the defender is obviously on the ground when contact occurs, thus I think we should lean towards a foul here. I think it's telling that both guys had it -- that's the expectation at this level.
They both should have passed. This wasn't an obvious foul. And I don't think it's telling at all that they both had a whistle. They both got it wrong. When the offense jumps in that much, that hard, I need to see defender really screw up. Jump forward into shooter. I think it was the wrong call.

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Nov 24, 2017 at 11:43pm.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Sat Nov 25, 2017, 03:21am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
They both should have passed. This wasn't an obvious foul. And I don't think it's telling at all that they both had a whistle. They both got it wrong. When the offense jumps in that much, that hard, I need to see defender really screw up. Jump forward into shooter. I think it was the wrong call.
Agree. The shooter gave up on the open shot and went for the foul. That isn't something I reward. And IIRC, that (rewarding a shooter for unnaturally creating contact) was something either the NCAA or NBA said they wanted to eliminate.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 02:14am
C'mon man!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
but, since it wouldn't have been the fifth foul, ....
Hahahaha. This made me laugh aloud.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 05:50am
AremRed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
The defender did not jump into the shooter.
Is the defender legal?
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 06:45am
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Is the defender legal?
Was the defender even Airborne when contact was made? Or had his first foot already hit the ground and the shooter stepped into him?

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 11:13am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 30,463
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Is the defender legal?
He has a right to his spot. And he is not responsible for contact when a shooter throws himself into his position. The NCAA made this very clear they do not want this to be a foul on the defender when the there would be no contact as a result of the shooter's unnatural motion into him.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 02:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 3,505
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Is the defender legal?
Simply saying a defender isn't "legal" isn't grounds to call a foul on him all the time. Unless covered by situation/rules a better use is "what did the defender do wrong?"

The offensive player jumped into the defender simply to "draw" a foul and in no way looked natural. I'm passing on this unless told otherwise.
__________________
in OS I trust
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 02:46pm
AremRed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Was the defender even Airborne when contact was made? Or had his first foot already hit the ground and the shooter stepped into him?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
He has a right to his spot. And he is not responsible for contact when a shooter throws himself into his position. The NCAA made this very clear they do not want this to be a foul on the defender when the there would be no contact as a result of the shooter's unnatural motion into him.
Oh I definitely agree the offensive player moved forward to draw the contact. That's without question. My understanding of the NCAA-M emphasis is more for the play where the defender is clearly going to the side of the offensive player and the offensive player moves laterally to intercept the defenders path.

I do not think this play with the defender still airborne, in front of the shooter, moving toward the offensive player is the type of play that demands a no-call. The defender might have returned one foot to the ground but I'm not good enough to tell in real time.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 02:48pm
AremRed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
Simply saying a defender isn't "legal" isn't grounds to call a foul on him all the time. Unless covered by situation/rules a better use is "what did the defender do wrong?"

The offensive player jumped into the defender simply to "draw" a foul and in no way looked natural. I'm passing on this unless told otherwise.
I didn't say all the time. I said in this specific instance. What did the defender do wrong in this instance? He jumped first, jumping toward the offensive player, compromising his position. Can't play legal defense jumping toward an offensive player and there being significant contact. Offensive player was smart to see the illegal defender and move forward to take the contact.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 03:11pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
Oh I definitely agree the offensive player moved forward to draw the contact. That's without question. My understanding of the NCAA-M emphasis is more for the play where the defender is clearly going to the side of the offensive player and the offensive player moves laterally to intercept the defenders path.

I do not think this play with the defender still airborne, in front of the shooter, moving toward the offensive player is the type of play that demands a no-call. The defender might have returned one foot to the ground but I'm not good enough to tell in real time.
The defender jumped in a direction that would have avoided the shooter. Defenders are entitled to their space also. The shooter took such an unnatural motion with his shot that he ended up shooting with his off-hand.

I'm no-calling this based on what I see on video, which is:

1) defender jumps in a path that is not in the direction of the shooter

2) shooter takes an unnatural in order to seek out contact

When I review video, I don't say "I would not have seen that in real time". When I review video, I say "I need to look for that in my games so I can get it correct."
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 03:51pm
AremRed
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
When I review video, I don't say "I would not have seen that in real time". When I review video, I say "I need to look for that in my games so I can get it correct."
My first time watching a play at full-speed is most important to me IMO, cuz that is most similar to what happens in-game. Sure you can slow down the video and go frame-by-frame and parse things but that doesn’t really help cuz we don’t referee on the floor that way.
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 03:54pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 14,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by AremRed View Post
My first time watching a play at full-speed is most important to me IMO, cuz that is most similar to what happens in-game. Sure you can slow down the video and go frame-by-frame and parse things but that doesn’t really help cuz we don’t referee on the floor that way.
The hell it doesn't. It shows that what we think we see on the court is not always what actually happens, and that we need to adjust how we are looking at plays.

That is one of the purposes of video. Look for reasons to get plays right, not excuses to get them wrong.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
__________________
A-hole formerly known as BNR

Last edited by Raymond; Mon Nov 27, 2017 at 04:09pm.
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Mon Nov 27, 2017, 06:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
The hell it doesn't. It shows that what we think we see on the court is not always what actually happens, and that we need to adjust how we are looking at plays.

That is one of the purposes of video. Look for reasons to get plays right, not excuses to get them wrong.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
Agree. Slow motion replay is to understand how we got it wrong and then know what it would look like at full speed so we can get it right at full speed.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Maui Invitational Video Plays (Michigan vs. LSU) JRutledge Basketball 14 Sun Nov 26, 2017 09:28am
Maui Invitational Video Plays (Marq vs VCU) JRutledge Basketball 3 Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:26am
Maui Invitational Video Plays (Marq vs. Wich) bucky Basketball 0 Tue Nov 21, 2017 02:20pm
Video Request: Northern Iowa @ Wichita St (2/13/16) twocentsworth Basketball 4 Sat Feb 13, 2016 04:24pm
Marq/Syracuse Video please (Video Added) justacoach Basketball 19 Sun Mar 31, 2013 08:50pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:54pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1