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  #61 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 05:27pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
B is on the other team.
The interp says that the catch of the ball by A1 in his BC is both the last touch in the FC and the first touch in the BC. Problem is there's only one touch. Last and first means there are two touches. A last and then a first.....That's what 9-9-1 says. We dont have word simultaneous.
2. Also, grammatically, the wording of the rule about the last touch refers to the player's location. The last touch under 9-9-1 has to be by a player in FC.
This year's case book says the play is legal but the ball took a bounce in the back court before A1 touched it. That is key to understanding the outcome of this.

If the ball does not take a bounce in the back court then it still has front court status because B1 touched it in the front court. So if A1 touches it before the bounce, while A1 is in the back court, then it is a violation.
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  #62 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 05:32pm
CJP CJP is offline
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If this situation plays out and you call a BC violation, I think coach on the violating team is going to lose his mind. It is the correct call but the coach is going to think otherwise.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 05:37pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
This year's case book says the play is legal but the ball took a bounce in the back court before A1 touched it. That is key to understanding the outcome of this.

If the ball does not take a bounce in the back court then it still has front court status because B1 touched it in the front court. So if A1 touches it before the bounce, while A1 is in the back court, then it is a violation.
Read the rule. I understand it completely. B is the last player in the FC to touch the ball. B is located in the FC. If you read the words an A player has to be the last to touch it in the FC. That portion of the rule is not talking about ball status/location. It refers to player location. When A catches it on the fly in the BC he is the first to touch it in the BC. The ball had FC status but that A player didnt. It was B who touched it last in the FC. Whether it bounces or not doesnt matter by the words of the rule. The interp is just wrong. Again, there's no simultaneous touching in the rule.

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Nov 17, 2017 at 05:52pm.
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  #64 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 05:52pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Read the rule. I understand it completely. B is the last player in the FC to touch the ball. B is located in the FC. If you read the words an A player has to be the last to touch it in the FC. That portion of the rule is not talking about ball status/location. When A catches it on the fly in the BC he is the first to touch it in the BC. The ball had FC status but that A player didnt. It was B who touched it last in the FC. Whether it bounces or not doesnt matter by the words of the rule. The interp is just wrong.
Team A has team control in the backcourt. They still have team control after the ball is deflected. Team control is now in the FC. The ball has FC status after the deflection. The ball is technically in the front court when A1 touches it while standing in the back court. It is a violation.

Whether it bounces or not DOES matter by words of the rule. The last six words are "before it went to the backcourt". "It" meaning the ball. The ball is not in the backcourt until it touches the floor in the backcourt.

Last edited by CJP; Fri Nov 17, 2017 at 05:55pm.
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 06:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
Team A has team control in the backcourt. They still have team control after the ball is deflected into the backcourt. Team control is now in the FC. The ball has FC status after the deflection. The ball is technically in the front court when A1 touches it while standing in the back court. It is a violation.

Whether it bounces or not DOES matter by words of the rule. The last six words are "before it went to the backcourt". "It" meaning the ball. The ball cannot go back into the backcourt unless in touches the floor.
What player was located in the FC and what player in the FC was last to touch the ball? B. You are right that the ball is in team control of A and gains FC status when B deflects it. That's part of the rule. But it goes on to say last player in FC to touch. B is the only player in this example IN the FC. That's what words mean. B is last to touch in FC. And you are right the last 6 words refer to the ball. The touching of the ball by the other A player standing in BC makes him first to touch in BC. The rule requires more than FC status of ball and a touch in BC. Somebody on A has to be last to touch in FC
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 06:22pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Somebody on A has to be last to touch in FC
The key to understanding this is that the ball has to return to the BC status before A1 can touch it (this is the last 6 words of the rule). If the ball still has FC status when A1 touches it then A1 was the last to touch it in the FC. Because he is standing in the BC, it is a violation.

Last edited by CJP; Fri Nov 17, 2017 at 10:24pm.
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 06:31pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
The key to understanding this is that the ball has to return to the BC status before A1 can touch it (this is the last 6 letters of the rule). If the ball still has FC status when A1 touches it then A1 was the last to touch it in the FC. Because he is standing in the BC, it is a violation.
Again, I understand it completely. You are focusing on the last 6 words and not the beginning. First the ball has FC status while it is in the air flying towards A1. A1 is in the BC. The moment he touches the ball it gains BC status. There is no simultaneous in the rule. The interp says his single touch makes him the last to touch in FC and first to touch in back. That's not supported by rule language.

And again, I believe the last to touch in FC refers to the physical location of the player. An A had to be IN FC and touch ball. Touching a ball that has FC status does not mean the player is in FC. Again, I believe the moment it's touched in BC the ball has BC status. Don't agree that single touch means both

Last edited by BigCat; Fri Nov 17, 2017 at 06:33pm.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 06:41pm
CJP CJP is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Again, I understand it completely. You are focusing on the last 6 words and not the beginning. First the ball has FC status while it is in the air flying towards A1. A1 is in the BC. The moment he touches the ball it gains BC status. There is no simultaneous in the rule. The interp says his single touch makes him the last to touch in FC and first to touch in back. That's not supported by rule language.

And again, I believe the last to touch in FC refers to the physical location of the player. An A had to be IN FC and touch ball. Touching a ball that has FC status does not mean the player is in FC. Again, I believe the moment it's touched in BC the ball has BC status. Don't agree that single touch means both
The first sentence in the rule starts out "A player shall not be the first to touch....". It ends with "before it went to the backcourt". So your thoughts about the moment its touched by A1 in the BC it has BC status is false.
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 06:50pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
The first sentence in the rule starts out "A player shall not be the first to touch....". It ends with "before it went to the backcourt". So your thoughts about the moment its touched by A1 in the BC it has BC status is false.
Your giving me a headache🙃. The moment A1 touches a ball in flight while he is standing in the BC absolutely gives the ball BC status. 4-4-3 and 4. Ball in flight retains location of previous touch etc. ball touched is located where player located. No simultaneous anywhere.
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 09:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
The key to understanding this is that the ball has to return to the BC status before A1 can touch it (this is the last 6 letters of the rule). If the ball still has FC status when A1 touches it then A1 was the last to touch it in the FC. Because he is standing in the BC, it is a violation.
No. That is not the key.

A is only prohibited from being the first to touch it in the backcourt (which they are) if and ONLY if A was the last to touch it with FC status BEFORE it returned to A in the backcourt. The key is the word BEFORE. A's touch in the backcourt can not be BEFORE A's touch in the backcourt.

The RULE:

Quote:
ART. 1 . . . A player shall not be the first to touch the ball after it has been in team control in the frontcourt, if he/she or a teammate last touched or was touched by the ball in the frontcourt before it went to the backcourt.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Sat Nov 18, 2017 at 12:02am.
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 10:08pm
CJP CJP is offline
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My understanding of the rule is consistent with the interpretation. I get it.
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old Fri Nov 17, 2017, 10:15pm
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Originally Posted by CJP View Post
My understanding of the rule is consistent with the interpretation. I get it.
Your understanding of the rule is consistent with the interp. Problem is that interp is not consistent with rule. We will agree to disagree on this one. Take care.
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 11:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJP View Post
I don't think there is a contradiction between the rules as they are written and the interpretation. Ball status is clearly defined. Rule 9 Section 9 Art 1 clearly states that the player A cannot touch the ball in the back court, after the front court deflection by B, before the ball goes back to the back court. It cannot be back in the back court until it takes a bounce.

Am I missing something?
This is exactly how I see it too! I'm not even sure where the confusion lies???

I had a situation that would be similar to this this year.

A1 passing the ball around the perimeter to A2 while in the FC. B1 deflects the pass and the ball is heading for the BC. The ball is moving fairly fast and takes it's last bounce just before the division line in the FC. A2 runs 5 feet into the BC and secures the ball. The ball never bounced in the BC. I called the violation. The crowd didn't like it, lol, because it was deflected.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 12:34pm
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Originally Posted by Shane O View Post
This is exactly how I see it too! I'm not even sure where the confusion lies???

I had a situation that would be similar to this this year.

A1 passing the ball around the perimeter to A2 while in the FC. B1 deflects the pass and the ball is heading for the BC. The ball is moving fairly fast and takes it's last bounce just before the division line in the FC. A2 runs 5 feet into the BC and secures the ball. The ball never bounced in the BC. I called the violation. The crowd didn't like it, lol, because it was deflected.
The crowd didn't like it because the call was incorrect. Based on the rule...who was the last to touch the ball BEFORE it returned to the backcourt? Team B....no violation.
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old Tue Dec 19, 2017, 12:46pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The crowd didn't like it because the call was incorrect. Based on the rule...who was the last to touch the ball BEFORE it returned to the backcourt? Team B....no violation.
This is that play that's been talked about.

And from what I've read the interpretation is that A was both the last to touch the ball when it had FC status and the first to touch the ball when it gains BC status. Therefore a violation.

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