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Old Wed Oct 11, 2017, 10:39am
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Last second shot attempts

Would like some opinions on the questions below. The NFHS Officials Manual contains very little instruction on this important aspect of the game so your answers may be very helpful to many who use The Forum.

Question #1
If the ruling official (on a last-second attempt outside of his/her primary coverage area) is unsure if the ball was released in time and the try ends up being successful, should the ruling official go ahead and count the basket, or first go to the other officials to see if they had definite knowledge before making a ruling?

Question #2
When a contested last-second play is in progress from the ruling official’s coverage area, what should the non-ruling officials be focused on or looking for?

Question #3
Referee’s final decision: A game-winning try is attempted by a low post player in the Lead’s coverage area. Amidst heavy defensive pressure on the release, the Lead can clearly see the ball still touching the shooter’s fingers as the horn sounds. The ball banks off the board and goes in. The ruling official felt the ball was released in time and counts the basket. The official’s manual says the non-ruling official should go to the ruling official for a discussion. Assuming the two officials maintain their differing opinions, what would your final decision be if you were:
(a) The Referee as well as the ruling official.
(b) The Referee as well as the Lead official.
(c) The Referee and the third official.

Thanks in advance.

Billy
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Old Wed Oct 11, 2017, 10:43am
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1) Make the call first.

2) Whether the ball was released in time. All officials should have an opinion on this -- (almost) nothing that happens away from the ball is going to matter here.

3) The call belongs to the ruling official. If the mind can't be changed, stick with it. But, I'm getting the whole crew together to see who had what, and how convinced they are that their view is correct.
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Old Wed Oct 11, 2017, 11:21am
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I'm going to the monit.....wait. Shoot. Oh darn it.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 12:15pm
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1) This should ideally never happen because you covered this in pregame as well as during the most recent stoppage in play. However go with your gut, if you are wrong your partner should provide this information. If you are right he should play along. If you are very unsure make your call and let the teams know that you want to confer with your partners before making it official. But don't just make a call and then right away go to your partners for "help" it looks confusing as heck.

2) I personally discuss such plays pregame and during the game as reminders. If the clock is mine and the play happens in my primary I have first crack on foul/nofoul and good/nogood. My partner or partners are still expected to have an opinion. In 3 man the expectation is that I can look for release and the partner closest can focus on foul. In 2 man not so easy depending on location. However in cases where the play is not in my primary and I have clock I focus on release and don't worry at all for contact.

3) Whoever makes the call sticks with it or changes it based on new information.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 12:34pm
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1. Wait until we have the right call. Ask for help and then make the call. If you make a call and then change it, then we will have bigger problems.

2. We all can have an opinion, but that does not mean we will know for sure. Let the calling official make this call and get help if they need it. Or change the mechanic so that the person that has the call is the best person. Most last second shots that really are going to decide the game have a timeout or some stoppage before they make the attempt.

3. We are going to get it right when possible. But it is not that deep. Let the calling official make the call unless they have some information to change the call.

Peace
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 03:39pm
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On #1 -- If you are the calling official, and the shot was not released in time, you should wave off the shot immediately. After the ball has gone through the basket, if you haven't waved it off already, then I would interpret that to mean that you thought that the basket was good and if I'm your partner, I would wait for your signal to score the basket (or come to you if I know the shot was late). If you don't make a signal, I'm going to come to you to discuss (I am generally going to make my way towards my partner anyway on a last second shot so that we can all leave together).

If it was my call, and I really had no idea (completely screened out or the play went opposite side, etc), I imagine I would blow my whistle to acknowledge it was end of game and I know it is my call; run to my partner nearest the play to get his/her opinion (and hopefully by that time the other official has joined); clear the players and blow my whistle and then give a clear signal to the scorer; leave the court with partners.
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Old Thu Oct 12, 2017, 11:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
1) This should ideally never happen because you covered this in pregame as well as during the most recent stoppage in play.
How will pregame prevent not being able to hear the horn or prevent not being able to see the play?
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2017, 05:32am
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
How will pregame prevent not being able to hear the horn or prevent not being able to see the play?
I pregame that if the official responsible for this doesn't have a look or call to make that we then have a secondary (or in 3man tertiary) official who would make the call. Similar to OOB plays where we look for help.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2017, 12:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
I pregame that if the official responsible for this doesn't have a look or call to make that we then have a secondary (or in 3man tertiary) official who would make the call. Similar to OOB plays where we look for help.
Still, the question remains. How does pregaming make the horn audible?
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2017, 08:22pm
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Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
Still, the question remains. How does pregaming make the horn audible?
What the heck are you talking about? The question was about last second shot responsibility and the primary coverage official not sure what to do in case of uncertainty.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:14pm
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
What the heck are you talking about? The question was about last second shot responsibility and the primary coverage official not sure what to do in case of uncertainty.
The question was about the last second shot and not being able to tell if it was released before the horn or not. In my experience, the most likely reason to no know if the shot was released in time is not being able to hear the horn over the noise. It is usually not about being able to see the shot. If you can not hear the horn to tell, no amount of pregaming will fix that.
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Old Fri Oct 13, 2017, 09:36pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The question was about the last second shot and not being able to tell if it was released before the horn or not. In my experience, the most likely reason to no know if the shot was released in time is not being able to hear the horn over the noise. It is usually not about being able to see the shot. If you can not hear the horn to tell, no amount of pregaming will fix that.
By making sure to remind your partners to pay attention to last second shots, even though they are not the calling official on that play, you have more ears on the horn (not sure that makes sense, but I think you know what I mean) and thus more likely to have somebody know what happened instead of possibly having to guess.
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Old Sat Oct 14, 2017, 06:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
The question was about the last second shot and not being able to tell if it was released before the horn or not. In my experience, the most likely reason to no know if the shot was released in time is not being able to hear the horn over the noise. It is usually not about being able to see the shot. If you can not hear the horn to tell, no amount of pregaming will fix that.
There was no mention of not hearing the horn. The question was regarding uncertainty if the ball was released in time or not.
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Old Sat Oct 14, 2017, 02:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
There was no mention of not hearing the horn. The question was regarding uncertainty if the ball was released in time or not.
In fact, no mention was made of the reason why they were uncertain. It could be the horn as well as other reasons. And as I said, in my experience, not hearing the horn over crowd noise seems to be more common than not being able to see the shot.
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Old Sat Oct 14, 2017, 07:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
In fact, no mention was made of the reason why they were uncertain. It could be the horn as well as other reasons. And as I said, in my experience, not hearing the horn over crowd noise seems to be more common than not being able to see the shot.
Both issues are critical to be sure. I would say from my experiences I have had fewer hearing-the-horn issues compared to the times when the ruling official ends up having the least favorable or less-than-ideal angle of the release. Fortunately, that doesn't mean he/she cannot make the correct call because most often the disparity between the horn and release or the release and horn is obvious from any angle. But in those situations where the horn-release/or release-horn is extremely close, a less-than-ideal angle of the ruling official is going to create some uncertainty for that official. I think we all would agree, if there is any doubt, we are not waving off the try. So, going back to my original question, if the ball goes in, would you be more comfortable going ahead and counting it and quite possibly having one or both of your partners come to you with information that likely will result in changing the call? Or, withhold any signal and go directly to your partners to discuss and make the decision together?
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