FIBA or N.Federation

[PP]

Are the rules the same for FIBA or Federation? not sure
Player A1 drives to the hoop for a layup and begins his steps as B1 reaches in and fouls him. B2 comes from the help side and attempts to block the layup and in doing so, his momentum takes him into A1 and they collide hard into the mat.
The referee calls a personal foul on B1.
Is this correct?
Could the official call a personal on B1 and an unsporting on B2?

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by PP

Are the rules the same for FIBA or Federation? not sure
Player A1 drives to the hoop for a layup and begins his steps as B1 reaches in and fouls him. B2 comes from the help side and attempts to block the layup and in doing so, his momentum takes him into A1 and they collide hard into the mat.
The referee calls a personal foul on B1.
Is this correct?
Could the official call a personal on B1 and an unsporting on B2?

NFHS: Since A1 had begun his shooting motion the ball does not become dead until the try ends. Assuming B2 contacted A1 before the try ended, if you rule a foul it must be a personal foul. In this situation, the fouls by B1 and B2 create a false multiple foul situation where each would carry its own penalty. Realistically, I’m ignoring B2’s foul unless I just can’t ignore it.

An “unsporting foul” in NFHS is a noncontact technical foul, so that would not fit the bill here (I know it’s different in FIBA). And as I noted, any foul you rule on B2 before the try ends must be a personal foul.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by SC Official

NFHS: Since A1 had begun his shooting motion the ball does not become dead until the try ends. Assuming B2 contacted A1 before the try ended, if you rule a foul it must be a personal foul. In this situation, the fouls by B1 and B2 create a false multiple foul situation where each would carry its own penalty. Realistically, I’m ignoring B2’s foul unless I just can’t ignore it.

An “unsporting foul” in NFHS is a noncontact technical foul, so that would not fit the bill here (I know it’s different in FIBA). And as I noted, any foul you rule on B2 before the try ends must be a personal foul.

Depending on how you read the OP, I don't think the first foul is in the act of shooting....it was on the beginning of the drive, not the shot.

That said, I'll assume I was reading that wrong and the act of shooting had begun at the time of the foul by B1. If so, this is a multiple foul, not a false multiple. Multiple is "approximately" the same time. One penalty. Both players charged, and a total of 2 FTs (one for each foul, assuming it was not a 3 since it was a layup).

If the time between the contacts were not "approximately" the same time, the first was either not in the act of shooting and the ball was dead...making the 2nd a T for dead ball contact. Or, the the ball became dead after the first due to the lack of continuous motion, again making the 2nd a T for dead ball contact.

The right way to handle this, assuming the contacts were indeed very close in time, is to have a patient whistle, only after the 2nd contact, and call that and only that.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the time between the contacts were not "approximately" the same time, the first was either not in the act of shooting and the ball was dead...making the 2nd a T for dead ball contact. Or, the the ball became dead after the first due to the lack of continuous motion, again making the 2nd a T for dead ball contact.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I can certainly see the initial foul by B1 occurring right at the beginning of the shooting motion and then the shooter takes a legal step, jumps, releases the try, then B2 attempts to block the try but misses and fouls the shooter before returning to the floor.

I don't think you could say those were approximately the same time. Yet both are committed during a live ball and would be personal fouls.

(Would I call it that way? Very unlikely. But it's not a particularly unlikely scenario.)

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not sure I agree with this. I can certainly see the initial foul by B1 occurring right at the beginning of the shooting motion and then the shooter takes a legal step, jumps, releases the try, then B2 attempts to block the try but misses and fouls the shooter before returning to the floor.

I don't think you could say those were approximately the same time. Yet both are committed during a live ball and would be personal fouls.

(Would I call it that way? Very unlikely. But it's not a particularly unlikely scenario.)

Agreed.

Also I interpreted "begins his steps" to mean that continuous motion/the act of shooting had begun.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'm not sure I agree with this. I can certainly see the initial foul by B1 occurring right at the beginning of the shooting motion and then the shooter takes a legal step, jumps, releases the try, then B2 attempts to block the try but misses and fouls the shooter before returning to the floor.

I don't think you could say those were approximately the same time. Yet both are committed during a live ball and would be personal fouls.

(Would I call it that way? Very unlikely. But it's not a particularly unlikely scenario.)

See case 4.19.12 (last year's book; reference might have changed). Seems to be the same play. False multiple.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

See case 4.19.12 (last year's book; reference might have changed). Seems to be the same play. False multiple.

I'm fine with that. My only point was that there was not going to be a technical foul for dead ball contact. Both fouls are personal fouls, even if there's obvious time between the fouls.