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PP Tue Oct 24, 2017 06:27pm

FIBA or N.Federation
 
Are the rules the same for FIBA or Federation? not sure
Player A1 drives to the hoop for a layup and begins his steps as B1 reaches in and fouls him. B2 comes from the help side and attempts to block the layup and in doing so, his momentum takes him into A1 and they collide hard into the mat.
The referee calls a personal foul on B1.
Is this correct?
Could the official call a personal on B1 and an unsporting on B2?

SC Official Tue Oct 24, 2017 07:53pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PP (Post 1010543)
Are the rules the same for FIBA or Federation? not sure
Player A1 drives to the hoop for a layup and begins his steps as B1 reaches in and fouls him. B2 comes from the help side and attempts to block the layup and in doing so, his momentum takes him into A1 and they collide hard into the mat.
The referee calls a personal foul on B1.
Is this correct?
Could the official call a personal on B1 and an unsporting on B2?

NFHS: Since A1 had begun his shooting motion the ball does not become dead until the try ends. Assuming B2 contacted A1 before the try ended, if you rule a foul it must be a personal foul. In this situation, the fouls by B1 and B2 create a false multiple foul situation where each would carry its own penalty. Realistically, I’m ignoring B2’s foul unless I just can’t ignore it.

An “unsporting foul” in NFHS is a noncontact technical foul, so that would not fit the bill here (I know it’s different in FIBA). And as I noted, any foul you rule on B2 before the try ends must be a personal foul.

Camron Rust Wed Oct 25, 2017 01:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by SC Official (Post 1010545)
NFHS: Since A1 had begun his shooting motion the ball does not become dead until the try ends. Assuming B2 contacted A1 before the try ended, if you rule a foul it must be a personal foul. In this situation, the fouls by B1 and B2 create a false multiple foul situation where each would carry its own penalty. Realistically, I’m ignoring B2’s foul unless I just can’t ignore it.

An “unsporting foul” in NFHS is a noncontact technical foul, so that would not fit the bill here (I know it’s different in FIBA). And as I noted, any foul you rule on B2 before the try ends must be a personal foul.

Depending on how you read the OP, I don't think the first foul is in the act of shooting....it was on the beginning of the drive, not the shot.

That said, I'll assume I was reading that wrong and the act of shooting had begun at the time of the foul by B1. If so, this is a multiple foul, not a false multiple. Multiple is "approximately" the same time. One penalty. Both players charged, and a total of 2 FTs (one for each foul, assuming it was not a 3 since it was a layup).

If the time between the contacts were not "approximately" the same time, the first was either not in the act of shooting and the ball was dead...making the 2nd a T for dead ball contact. Or, the the ball became dead after the first due to the lack of continuous motion, again making the 2nd a T for dead ball contact.

The right way to handle this, assuming the contacts were indeed very close in time, is to have a patient whistle, only after the 2nd contact, and call that and only that.

Scrapper1 Wed Oct 25, 2017 09:13am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Camron Rust (Post 1010551)

If the time between the contacts were not "approximately" the same time, the first was either not in the act of shooting and the ball was dead...making the 2nd a T for dead ball contact. Or, the the ball became dead after the first due to the lack of continuous motion, again making the 2nd a T for dead ball contact.

I'm not sure I agree with this. I can certainly see the initial foul by B1 occurring right at the beginning of the shooting motion and then the shooter takes a legal step, jumps, releases the try, then B2 attempts to block the try but misses and fouls the shooter before returning to the floor.

I don't think you could say those were approximately the same time. Yet both are committed during a live ball and would be personal fouls.

(Would I call it that way? Very unlikely. But it's not a particularly unlikely scenario.)

SC Official Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 1010566)
I'm not sure I agree with this. I can certainly see the initial foul by B1 occurring right at the beginning of the shooting motion and then the shooter takes a legal step, jumps, releases the try, then B2 attempts to block the try but misses and fouls the shooter before returning to the floor.

I don't think you could say those were approximately the same time. Yet both are committed during a live ball and would be personal fouls.

(Would I call it that way? Very unlikely. But it's not a particularly unlikely scenario.)

Agreed.

Also I interpreted "begins his steps" to mean that continuous motion/the act of shooting had begun.

bob jenkins Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:28am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrapper1 (Post 1010566)
I'm not sure I agree with this. I can certainly see the initial foul by B1 occurring right at the beginning of the shooting motion and then the shooter takes a legal step, jumps, releases the try, then B2 attempts to block the try but misses and fouls the shooter before returning to the floor.

I don't think you could say those were approximately the same time. Yet both are committed during a live ball and would be personal fouls.

(Would I call it that way? Very unlikely. But it's not a particularly unlikely scenario.)

See case 4.19.12 (last year's book; reference might have changed). Seems to be the same play. False multiple.

Scrapper1 Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:00pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by bob jenkins (Post 1010576)
See case 4.19.12 (last year's book; reference might have changed). Seems to be the same play. False multiple.

I'm fine with that. My only point was that there was not going to be a technical foul for dead ball contact. Both fouls are personal fouls, even if there's obvious time between the fouls.


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