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Old Sat Jun 17, 2017, 06:36am
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Lightbulb Ref Shortage

Another article about ref shortages due to abuse:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...=.d9f3961727ab

Basketball isn't specifically mentioned. In NVA, that's one sport we have a good many officials at the scholastic level.

My son decided to take up football officiating this year as he says they are so hurting for officials they are moving more and more games off of Fri nights as they can't get enough crews......
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Old Sat Jun 17, 2017, 09:50pm
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Hehe, well as I'm sure your boy will soon discover, there are several reasons that that group has issues retaining officials. However abuse is the major factor.

Of the several high school sports I do, soccer is the worst. It's the only time I've had people take photos, follow me, or even try to fight me. From the richest parts of NoVA down to the poorest, parents think it's a great idea to try the guys in the flamboyantly yellow/green/red/blue shirts (I'm betting that doesn't help either ). I blame the professionals. It's hard to find a game where the referee isn't surround by players who are chewing him out over an obvious foul call. Coaches/kids see that and think "Yeah, that's appropriate, I can do that in my game".

Yet I don't see a fix in the future. Soccer has parents get certified and ref if the kids are U13 and under, but most clubs are trying to do away with that. I think that's what we'll see in the future; parents being forced to officiate so their kids will have umps/refs. Maybe, and I doubt it, they'll finally just shut the hell up.

P.S. I think basketball somewhat avoids the problem because we have a handle on the coaches/kids. You do a quarter of the dissent in soccer in a basketball game and you'll be ejected inside 6 minutes. And I assure you, my group has been heavily recruiting these past few seasons.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 08:16am
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Player 989, sounds like you guys need to start using your red cards more! Stqart kicking people out of the game and see how that changes things!
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 08:31am
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Originally Posted by ballgame99 View Post
Player 989, sounds like you guys need to start using your red cards more! Stqart kicking people out of the game and see how that changes things!
I take your point. No referee should tolerate unsporting behavior. You can't use a Red card on anyone except players in US soccer, but referees have options in every situation. A coach can be dismissed. If spectators are harassing the players or officials, the referee can stop the match and enlist the coaches to deal with the situation. If the coaches can't or won't, then abandon the match. Report the incident to your state association and it should be dealt with. If you find your town is particularly tough to deal with, work for a different assignor. Referees have more power than they realize.

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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 10:19am
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I know you can't really compare sports, but I've always been amazed at the amount of BS soccer officials are expected to put up with.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 11:05am
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Right or wrong, we are not in a country that cares about soccer on some large scale. Most of the soccer officials I know, either played the game or are from another country or speak other languages. So soccer is their sport they play. This is not football or basketball where the country is obsessed over those sports already and you are asking for officials to work a sport they might not understand on some level or even like. To me this is the problem for sports like soccer, volleyball or even lacrosse. Even football in my area is becoming a problem, but that is because schools decided to play on Friday when they used to play many games on Saturday. But the attitudes of parents and coaches are certainly not helping. I am not sure if I did not know what I know now that I would want to do this either. I have been around for over 20 years and doing youth sports is not what I want to be associated with anymore either.

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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 12:13pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Right or wrong, we are not in a country that cares about soccer on some large scale. Most of the soccer officials I know, either played the game or are from another country or speak other languages. So soccer is their sport they play. This is not football or basketball where the country is obsessed over those sports already and you are asking for officials to work a sport they might not understand on some level or even like. To me this is the problem for sports like soccer, volleyball or even lacrosse. Even football in my area is becoming a problem, but that is because schools decided to play on Friday when they used to play many games on Saturday. But the attitudes of parents and coaches are certainly not helping. I am not sure if I did not know what I know now that I would want to do this either. I have been around for over 20 years and doing youth sports is not what I want to be associated with anymore either.

Peace
That is a regional opinion, not a national one. Soccer is huge in the Northeast. More kids play soccer than play baseball. Nearly all of the hundreds of referees in my part of the state are born here to parents who were born here as well. I am rare among them, because I haven't been playing since I was a little kid. I will grant you that soccer is not that popular in some parts of the country, but nationally, it is growing rapidly. I will be at the Region 1 Championships in Virginia in a couple of weeks. Last year when I was there, I met hundreds of other referees, aged between 16 and 35, who were all experts on the game, not working a sport they don't really understand.

Personally, I think the referee abuse and assault problem in soccer is a complicated one. I don't think soccer, as a youth sport, is any better or worse than another youth sport. If I had to rank them, I think I see more abuse in High School basketball than in any soccer games. Upper level youth and Amateur/pro adult soccer is actually better, in my opinion than the same level baseball games. Youth football is notorious and is the only for which I have seen officials requiring a police escort to safely get to their cars. So, I think society, as a whole needs to get on top of the problem of referee abuse and assault, and we shouldn't focus on one sport over another.

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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 12:17pm
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I don't do any youth, adult, or off season basketball. It's just not worth it. When it was at the point that I was handing out more T's and dealing with more unruly fans that the game it's just not worth my time. I can also say that coaches are a big part of the problem. NY State relies on coaches ratings for advancement and I am usually in the middle of the pack, mostly because I don't put up with much, from player or coaches.

I will answer questions respectfully all day, but bad behavior I have 0 tolerance for. I have actually gotten into it with 2 partners in the last 3 years that let stuff go and not address it, then I see them being buddy buddy with a coach during the game and I bring it up. We don't do ourselves any favors. Reffing is an avocation but when you are working a game it's YOUR job.

My expectation is that if you work a game with me you do YOUR job.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 12:28pm
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Just be glad yall dont work in countries where soccer is called football.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 01:39pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
That is a regional opinion, not a national one. Soccer is huge in the Northeast. More kids play soccer than play baseball.
Keep in mind I did not say a single thing about baseball. Baseball is dying on many levels in this country with people from this country. If you are not in your 40s or 50 baseball is not the most watched sport amongst people in a younger age group. Yes there is a regional issue (and the article deals with a regional concern) but it is also related to the overall perception of the sport as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
Personally, I think the referee abuse and assault problem in soccer is a complicated one. I don't think soccer, as a youth sport, is any better or worse than another youth sport. If I had to rank them, I think I see more abuse in High School basketball than in any soccer games. Upper level youth and Amateur/pro adult soccer is actually better, in my opinion than the same level baseball games. Youth football is notorious and is the only for which I have seen officials requiring a police escort to safely get to their cars. So, I think society, as a whole needs to get on top of the problem of referee abuse and assault, and we shouldn't focus on one sport over another.
Youth sports in general is a problem. I think it is not any more of a problem in any sport when adults have little perspective of the overall picture. I think sports like soccer that involves judgment and not hard fast rules, there are issues with how parents or fans react to calls. Football for example has several different rules that it is clear fans do not yell about sometimes because they are not even clear what the rules that apply. But even in football fans try to yell about an NFL rule as opposed to the youth rules that actually apply. But when you keep hearing stories of assaults or confrontations it does not seem to come from one sport over another. At least locally the issue we have had big time happen in youth football and youth baseball. But soccer is big in this part of the state, but I am not as connected with that sport to know if they have more or less situations overall. I just know in basketball during the summer there is an interaction with fans that never happens during the season.

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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 01:44pm
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
I don't do any youth, adult, or off season basketball. It's just not worth it. When it was at the point that I was handing out more T's and dealing with more unruly fans that the game it's just not worth my time. I can also say that coaches are a big part of the problem. NY State relies on coaches ratings for advancement and I am usually in the middle of the pack, mostly because I don't put up with much, from player or coaches.

I will answer questions respectfully all day, but bad behavior I have 0 tolerance for. I have actually gotten into it with 2 partners in the last 3 years that let stuff go and not address it, then I see them being buddy buddy with a coach during the game and I bring it up. We don't do ourselves any favors. Reffing is an avocation but when you are working a game it's YOUR job.

My expectation is that if you work a game with me you do YOUR job.
I'm with you.

This is one of the few reasons I'm glad I live in South Carolina. We've got plenty of issues (would bet more than most states), but the fact that all varsity assignments come out of Columbia means that we don't have to worry about assigners employing a "don't rock the boat" philosophy of pandering to the coaches. The state office generally backs us up for enforcing sportsmanship rules, and the $300 fine and suspension for ejected coaches doesn't hurt, either.

Our archaic rating system also thankfully does not have a coaches rating component (though there is a peer rating component which presents a whole host of different issues). Giving the coaches the say in who works deep into the postseason is shameful, IMO, and I'll never understand why so many states rely on it.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 01:48pm
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Our archaic rating system also thankfully does not have a coaches rating component (though there is a peer rating component which presents a whole host of different issues).
NY State does this too. Peer and coaches ratings.....what a waste of time.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 02:07pm
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Originally Posted by deecee View Post
NY State does this too. Peer and coaches ratings.....what a waste of time.
We have peer ratings here in Connecticut, but it is an imperfect system, I agree. I just don't think there is any great way to effectively grade officials like they can in the NCAA. There just isn't enough money to pay the neutral graders and supervisors to put in that kind of system. My HS supervisors, who play an outsized role in rating officials, also work most of the HS playoff championship games. I don't have anything against them, and they are great officials, but it will always lead to hard feelings and someone will be treated unfairly.

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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 02:13pm
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NY State does this too. Peer and coaches ratings.....what a waste of time.
Two evils and you guys have both of them...yikes. Not sure which one I would pick if I had to.

Plenty of great young officials or older officials working college do not advance far in the postseason in our state partially because grudgeful old guys will intentionally rate such officials poorly, even when they follow NFHS mechanics to a T. No accountability for giving poor ratings unjustly. Part of the reason why most of the officials working our state finals every year are in their 50s and up.
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Old Mon Jun 19, 2017, 04:53pm
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Originally Posted by Mbilica View Post
Personally, I think the referee abuse and assault problem in soccer is a complicated one. I don't think soccer, as a youth sport, is any better or worse than another youth sport. If I had to rank them, I think I see more abuse in High School basketball than in any soccer games. Upper level youth and Amateur/pro adult soccer is actually better, in my opinion than the same level baseball games. Youth football is notorious and is the only for which I have seen officials requiring a police escort to safely get to their cars. So, I think society, as a whole needs to get on top of the problem of referee abuse and assault, and we shouldn't focus on one sport over another.

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When I was in HS I had a bunch of friends who did the little kid leagues to make some easy money. Nowadays I rarely meet a teenager working a game. They all say it's due to the crazy parents and the coaches who harass them. Say what you will about the "soft generation", but if you're 15, why would want to spend your weekends getting insulted by 40 year old parents?

Then add in the stress when you ref a HS sport, and bam, no one is signing up. I don't know how baseball is, but I've seen it in youth football, soccer, and basketball. It's evil all the way down.

I say we start doing what FIFA does after racism is reported in certain games; we block the games off from spectators. You wanna watch Lil'Johnny play, you sit it down and shut it up.

EDIT: To address the lack of a rating system that doesn't "adequately provide evaluations of referee performance.", the day I see an honest and fair assessment from a coach is the day I ref a perfect game. Send a tape in, pay to have someone analyze the referees, learn that your players connected 30% of their passes, had 15 turnovers, and lost the game their ****ing selves.

Last edited by Player989random; Mon Jun 19, 2017 at 05:07pm.
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