Ref Shortage

[SC Official]

I know you can't really compare sports, but I've always been amazed at the amount of BS soccer officials are expected to put up with.

[JRutledge]

Right or wrong, we are not in a country that cares about soccer on some large scale. Most of the soccer officials I know, either played the game or are from another country or speak other languages. So soccer is their sport they play. This is not football or basketball where the country is obsessed over those sports already and you are asking for officials to work a sport they might not understand on some level or even like. To me this is the problem for sports like soccer, volleyball or even lacrosse. Even football in my area is becoming a problem, but that is because schools decided to play on Friday when they used to play many games on Saturday. But the attitudes of parents and coaches are certainly not helping. I am not sure if I did not know what I know now that I would want to do this either. I have been around for over 20 years and doing youth sports is not what I want to be associated with anymore either.

Peace

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Right or wrong, we are not in a country that cares about soccer on some large scale. Most of the soccer officials I know, either played the game or are from another country or speak other languages. So soccer is their sport they play. This is not football or basketball where the country is obsessed over those sports already and you are asking for officials to work a sport they might not understand on some level or even like. To me this is the problem for sports like soccer, volleyball or even lacrosse. Even football in my area is becoming a problem, but that is because schools decided to play on Friday when they used to play many games on Saturday. But the attitudes of parents and coaches are certainly not helping. I am not sure if I did not know what I know now that I would want to do this either. I have been around for over 20 years and doing youth sports is not what I want to be associated with anymore either.

Peace

That is a regional opinion, not a national one. Soccer is huge in the Northeast. More kids play soccer than play baseball. Nearly all of the hundreds of referees in my part of the state are born here to parents who were born here as well. I am rare among them, because I haven't been playing since I was a little kid. I will grant you that soccer is not that popular in some parts of the country, but nationally, it is growing rapidly. I will be at the Region 1 Championships in Virginia in a couple of weeks. Last year when I was there, I met hundreds of other referees, aged between 16 and 35, who were all experts on the game, not working a sport they don't really understand.

Personally, I think the referee abuse and assault problem in soccer is a complicated one. I don't think soccer, as a youth sport, is any better or worse than another youth sport. If I had to rank them, I think I see more abuse in High School basketball than in any soccer games. Upper level youth and Amateur/pro adult soccer is actually better, in my opinion than the same level baseball games. Youth football is notorious and is the only for which I have seen officials requiring a police escort to safely get to their cars. So, I think society, as a whole needs to get on top of the problem of referee abuse and assault, and we shouldn't focus on one sport over another.

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[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

That is a regional opinion, not a national one. Soccer is huge in the Northeast. More kids play soccer than play baseball.

Keep in mind I did not say a single thing about baseball. Baseball is dying on many levels in this country with people from this country. If you are not in your 40s or 50 baseball is not the most watched sport amongst people in a younger age group. Yes there is a regional issue (and the article deals with a regional concern) but it is also related to the overall perception of the sport as well.

Originally Posted by Mbilica

Personally, I think the referee abuse and assault problem in soccer is a complicated one. I don't think soccer, as a youth sport, is any better or worse than another youth sport. If I had to rank them, I think I see more abuse in High School basketball than in any soccer games. Upper level youth and Amateur/pro adult soccer is actually better, in my opinion than the same level baseball games. Youth football is notorious and is the only for which I have seen officials requiring a police escort to safely get to their cars. So, I think society, as a whole needs to get on top of the problem of referee abuse and assault, and we shouldn't focus on one sport over another.

Youth sports in general is a problem. I think it is not any more of a problem in any sport when adults have little perspective of the overall picture. I think sports like soccer that involves judgment and not hard fast rules, there are issues with how parents or fans react to calls. Football for example has several different rules that it is clear fans do not yell about sometimes because they are not even clear what the rules that apply. But even in football fans try to yell about an NFL rule as opposed to the youth rules that actually apply. But when you keep hearing stories of assaults or confrontations it does not seem to come from one sport over another. At least locally the issue we have had big time happen in youth football and youth baseball. But soccer is big in this part of the state, but I am not as connected with that sport to know if they have more or less situations overall. I just know in basketball during the summer there is an interaction with fans that never happens during the season.

Peace

[deecee]

I don't do any youth, adult, or off season basketball. It's just not worth it. When it was at the point that I was handing out more T's and dealing with more unruly fans that the game it's just not worth my time. I can also say that coaches are a big part of the problem. NY State relies on coaches ratings for advancement and I am usually in the middle of the pack, mostly because I don't put up with much, from player or coaches.

I will answer questions respectfully all day, but bad behavior I have 0 tolerance for. I have actually gotten into it with 2 partners in the last 3 years that let stuff go and not address it, then I see them being buddy buddy with a coach during the game and I bring it up. We don't do ourselves any favors. Reffing is an avocation but when you are working a game it's YOUR job.

My expectation is that if you work a game with me you do YOUR job.

[SNIPERBBB]

Just be glad yall dont work in countries where soccer is called football.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't do any youth, adult, or off season basketball. It's just not worth it. When it was at the point that I was handing out more T's and dealing with more unruly fans that the game it's just not worth my time. I can also say that coaches are a big part of the problem. NY State relies on coaches ratings for advancement and I am usually in the middle of the pack, mostly because I don't put up with much, from player or coaches.

I will answer questions respectfully all day, but bad behavior I have 0 tolerance for. I have actually gotten into it with 2 partners in the last 3 years that let stuff go and not address it, then I see them being buddy buddy with a coach during the game and I bring it up. We don't do ourselves any favors. Reffing is an avocation but when you are working a game it's YOUR job.

My expectation is that if you work a game with me you do YOUR job.

I'm with you.

This is one of the few reasons I'm glad I live in South Carolina. We've got plenty of issues (would bet more than most states), but the fact that all varsity assignments come out of Columbia means that we don't have to worry about assigners employing a "don't rock the boat" philosophy of pandering to the coaches. The state office generally backs us up for enforcing sportsmanship rules, and the $300 fine and suspension for ejected coaches doesn't hurt, either.

Our archaic rating system also thankfully does not have a coaches rating component (though there is a peer rating component which presents a whole host of different issues). Giving the coaches the say in who works deep into the postseason is shameful, IMO, and I'll never understand why so many states rely on it.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Our archaic rating system also thankfully does not have a coaches rating component (though there is a peer rating component which presents a whole host of different issues).

NY State does this too. Peer and coaches ratings.....what a waste of time.

[Mbilica]

Originally Posted by deecee

NY State does this too. Peer and coaches ratings.....what a waste of time.

We have peer ratings here in Connecticut, but it is an imperfect system, I agree. I just don't think there is any great way to effectively grade officials like they can in the NCAA. There just isn't enough money to pay the neutral graders and supervisors to put in that kind of system. My HS supervisors, who play an outsized role in rating officials, also work most of the HS playoff championship games. I don't have anything against them, and they are great officials, but it will always lead to hard feelings and someone will be treated unfairly.

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[RefCT]

Originally Posted by Mbilica

We have peer ratings here in Connecticut, but it is an imperfect system, I agree. I just don't think there is any great way to effectively grade officials like they can in the NCAA. There just isn't enough money to pay the neutral graders and supervisors to put in that kind of system. My HS supervisors, who play an outsized role in rating officials, also work most of the HS playoff championship games. I don't have anything against them, and they are great officials, but it will always lead to hard feelings and someone will be treated unfairly.

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Each board rates their officials their own way. When it comes down to state tournament assignments though, it is 100% how many votes you get from coaches and your assignments are 100% how much Mr Murray knows/trusts you.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by deecee

NY State does this too. Peer and coaches ratings.....what a waste of time.

Two evils and you guys have both of them...yikes. Not sure which one I would pick if I had to.

Plenty of great young officials or older officials working college do not advance far in the postseason in our state partially because grudgeful old guys will intentionally rate such officials poorly, even when they follow NFHS mechanics to a T. No accountability for giving poor ratings unjustly. Part of the reason why most of the officials working our state finals every year are in their 50s and up.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

... we are not in a country that cares about soccer on some large scale ...

Basketball 24.4 million participants
Baseball/Softball 23.3 million participants
Soccer 13.6 million participants
Football 8.9 million participants
Ice hockey 3.1 million participants

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Player989random

Hehe, well as I'm sure your boy will soon discover, there are several reasons that that group has issues retaining officials. However abuse is the major factor.

Of the several high school sports I do, soccer is the worst. It's the only time I've had people take photos, follow me, or even try to fight me. From the richest parts of NoVA down to the poorest, parents think it's a great idea to try the guys in the flamboyantly yellow/green/red/blue shirts (I'm betting that doesn't help either ). I blame the professionals. It's hard to find a game where the referee isn't surround by players who are chewing him out over an obvious foul call. Coaches/kids see that and think "Yeah, that's appropriate, I can do that in my game".

Yet I don't see a fix in the future. Soccer has parents get certified and ref if the kids are U13 and under, but most clubs are trying to do away with that. I think that's what we'll see in the future; parents being forced to officiate so their kids will have umps/refs. Maybe, and I doubt it, they'll finally just shut the hell up.

P.S. I think basketball somewhat avoids the problem because we have a handle on the coaches/kids. You do a quarter of the dissent in soccer in a basketball game and you'll be ejected inside 6 minutes. And I assure you, my group has been heavily recruiting these past few seasons.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Basketball 24.4 million participants
Baseball/Softball 23.3 million participants
Soccer 13.6 million participants
Football 8.9 million participants
Ice hockey 3.1 million participants

Soccer is just a thinly veiled attempt to get kids exercised and probably one of the cheapest sport to play and little training for kids to be able to play...a win-win-win for most parents. If pro soccer ever got the money level you see in other pro sports it will explode.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Basketball 24.4 million participants
Baseball/Softball 23.3 million participants
Soccer 13.6 million participants
Football 8.9 million participants
Ice hockey 3.1 million participants

Participation in a youth capacity is different than what happens in actual dollars for most communities and schools. I am in an area where every other year a new conference is forming or teams are leaving one conference to join another all because of football. Yes football might have fewer participants (many schools do not even have a football team) but everything in high school sports surrounds football. Teams are not moving conferences because of what is happening with the soccer team. Football in my state for most schools is one of the biggest revenue generators. Basketball does very well for many schools as well. Soccer is an afterthought. Soccer and other sports are lucky to get as many people attending those games as a JV football contest. Just alone in my state, the football and basketball State Finals (which advertises to get officials) are shown on live TV. The other sports not mentioned might be shown live, but you have to pay for the service with streaming video to see those events live. And all of this influences how we get officials and where they come from.

I belong to an organization of organizations called the Inter-Athletic Council of Officials (IACO). IACO is a group of official's associations that bond together to run area trainings. We have only camps and classes for football and basketball. We used to have a baseball/softball camp, but we lost so much money on that event we had to stop holding that event. We have had people try to start camps in other sports like wrestling and we cannot get enough participation and interest. This is also another reason we can find soccer officials that work multiple state finals and in sports like Football or Basketball, if you get 3 trips to the State Finals you are fortunate. But someone in Soccer might have 6 or 7 trips in their career.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Participation in a youth capacity is different than what happens in actual dollars for most communities and schools.

Agree. But still, 13.6 million soccer participants ain't nothing to sneeze at.

Maybe not in Illinois, but we are certainly a country that "cares about soccer".

Pratt and Whitney Stadium at Rentschler Field, in East Hartford, Connecticut (home of the University of Connecticut football Huskies) seats 41,000. USA Soccer has men's, or women's, games there about twice a year, and the stadium is almost filled to capacity for these games. Granted, fans are, for the most part, parents (soccer Moms) with children, or immigrants watching their home country, but soccer is certainly a lot more popular now compared to when I went to high school back in ancient times.

Soccer certainly isn't anywhere near up there with basketball, and football, but it's become a pretty popular sport over the past fifty years. Things change. At one time the biggest sports in the United States were horse racing, and boxing. Look at what happened to them.