NCAA Tournament Video Requests - Saturday March 18

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Peace

They pointed at the floor as if it was an RA block but he obtained LGP outside of the circle then stepped back into it. If it is a block, it can't be due to the RA. I have charge.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

They pointed at the floor as if it was an RA block but he obtained LGP outside of the circle then stepped back into it. If it is a block, it can't be due to the RA. I have charge.

I know we had this conversation before but this would be a secondary defender as this is an outnumbered break. Some might disagree, but this is why it was called a block IMO.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know we had this conversation before but this would be a secondary defender as this is an outnumbered break. Some might disagree, but this is why it was called a block IMO.

Peace

Isn't that irrelevant when a defender gains LGP outside of the RA since the RA is about obtaining LGP?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Isn't that irrelevant when a defender gains LGP outside of the RA since the RA is about obtaining LGP?

You cannot be there at the time of contact. So even if you back up into the RA, you are a secondary defender, you have committed a blocking foul.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You cannot be there at the time of contact. So even if you back up into the RA, you are a secondary defender, you have committed a blocking foul.

Peace

That is not what the rule says.....it only says that all defenders are a secondary defender on and outnumbering fast-break. It doesn't say they lose previously gained LGP by backing into the arc.

Then the RA rule says:

A secondary defender cannot establish initial legal guarding position in the restricted area for the purposes of drawing a player control foul/charge on a player who is in control of the ball (i.e., dribbling or shooting) or who has released the ball for a pass or try for goal.

NCAA Case Book:

A.R. 101. Team A is on a 3 on 2 or a 2 on 3 fast break, and any player on Team B takes an initial guarding position .... (2) outside the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, in an attempt to draw a player control/charging foul. A2, after receiving a pass, crashes into the torso of the Team B player, and the official calls a player control/ charging foul.
34 Rule 4 / Definitions
RULING
2: The official is correct. Even though the Team B player is initially a secondary defender, he did not establish initial guarding position inside the restricted area. When illegal contact occurs, it shall be a player control/charging foul.
(Rule 4-35.4, 4-30 and 10-1.14)

This case says that if the defender gets initial LGP outside the area, it can still be a charge. It doesn't restrict the defender's movement after gaining LGP.

[johnny d]

Agree with Rust on the rule. Disagree about where he established LGP. I think his right foot is on the line when he established.

[bucky]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Agree with Rust on the rule. Disagree about where he established LGP. I think his right foot is on the line when he established.

Not saying you are wrong however....

When the ball handler crosses the 3-pt line (pause vid at :08), do you feel that the defender is in LGP? At the same time, do you feel that the defender is still a secondary defender?

IMO, the defender established LGP well before the contact and at contact was considered to be a primary defender. (for outnumbering fast-breaks, defensive players are secondary defenders initially). I know why they called this a block however I feel it should have been PC.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is not what the rule says.....it only says that all defenders are a secondary defender on and outnumbering fast-break. It doesn't say they lose previously gained LGP by backing into the arc.

Then the RA rule says:



NCAA Case Book:



This case says that if the defender gets initial LGP outside the area, it can still be a charge. It doesn't restrict the defender's movement after gaining LGP.

I do not disagree that the language is fuzzy, but that is not how the rule is applied. When the player is in the RA during contact, that is what they seem to want to be called a block. Many examples have been shown on video to support that position. Because I have seen secondary defenders back up into the RA and get called and have seen video that supports this.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not disagree that the language is fuzzy, but that is not how the rule is applied. When the player is in the RA during contact, that is what they seem to want to be called a block. Many examples have been shown on video to support that position. Because I have seen secondary defenders back up into the RA and get called and have seen video that supports this.

Peace

Fuzzy? This isn't one of those fuzzy things. It may be how you and other are applying it but that doesn't make it right. Perhaps in those videos, they didn't deem the defender to have gained LGP before backing into the circle.

[dahoopref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not disagree that the language is fuzzy, but that is not how the rule is applied. When the player is in the RA during contact, that is what they seem to want to be called a block. Many examples have been shown on video to support that position. Because I have seen secondary defenders back up into the RA and get called and have seen video that supports this.

Peace

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Fuzzy? This isn't one of those fuzzy things. It may be how you and other are applying it but that doesn't make it right. Perhaps in those videos, they didn't deem the defender to have gained LGP before backing into the circle.

Per the NCAA Men's Basketball Central Hub via Art Hyland - Rules: Rules Clarifications and Play Situations (November 17, 2016):

Play 3. B1 and B2 are defending against a 3 on 2 fast break by Team A. Around the top of the key, A1 passes to A2 who is on the wing and B2 then commits to defending A2 by establishing a legal guarding position outside the RA on A2 (2 feet on the floor and facing his opponent). B2 defends A2 all the way to the basket and takes a charge in the RA.

RULING – B2 is initially a secondary defender because of the outnumbering fast break situation. However, B2 established legal guarding position on A2 outside the RA. Therefore, he is no longer a secondary defender and may defend A2 all the way to the basket including in the RA. In this situation, the RA rule is not in effect and block/charge plays should be adjudicated accordingly (Rule 4-35.4, 4-17.4, 4-17.7, and 10-1.14).

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is not what the rule says.....it only says that all defenders are a secondary defender on and outnumbering fast-break. It doesn't say they lose previously gained LGP by backing into the arc.

Then the RA rule says:



NCAA Case Book:



This case says that if the defender gets initial LGP outside the area, it can still be a charge. It doesn't restrict the defender's movement after gaining LGP.

I actually include this in my college pre-games. Once establishing LGP, the secondary defender can retreat into the RA and absorb contact.

[Nevadaref]

Excellent rules point stated by Camron and backed by BNR.