High School State Finals (Video)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

I'm not 100% sure, but I lean towards "blocK". It looks like the defender is moving sideways, but not obliquely, into the path of the shooter upon contact. From the center's angle he may see otherwise, though, so I'm not up in arms over the call.

Except.....he has two feet down in the path of the offensive player before he's airborne. No time/distance requirement. Big fan of this call, if not the mechanic.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Rich

Except.....he has two feet down in the path of the offensive player before he's airborne. No time/distance requirement. Big fan of this call, if not the mechanic.

The rule says the defender must move sideways or obliquely to maintain LGP. Which, to me, means in such a way as to not be moving towards or into the path of the shooter/dribbler. There is certainly movement by the defender, I'm just not sure it is legal movement.

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[Rich]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The rule says the defender must move sideways or obliquely to maintain LGP. Which, to me, means in such a way as to not be moving towards or into the path of the shooter/dribbler. There is certainly movement by the defender, I'm just not sure it is legal movement.

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I'm not talking about maintaining. I'm talking about establishing.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm not talking about maintaining. I'm talking about establishing.

Oh, I never said he didn't establish it. Or I didn't mean to. Just that I'm not sure he maintained it before contact.

[Rich]

I'm happy with the defense on this play. Playing defense is hard and I think too many officials look for a reason to say a defender is illegal.

Edited to add: I do not think the defender is moving in any illegal (read: forward) way at the point of contact.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm happy with the defense on this play. Playing defense is hard and I think too many officials look for a reason to say a defender is illegal.

Edited to add: I do not think the defender is moving in any illegal (read: forward) way at the point of contact.

Agree.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The rule says the defender must move sideways or obliquely to maintain LGP. Which, to me, means in such a way as to not be moving towards or into the path of the shooter/dribbler. There is certainly movement by the defender, I'm just not sure it is legal movement.

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Moving towards is certainly not allowed, but moving sideways is exactly what is allowed. Until the shooter leaves the floor, the defender has the right to continue sideways movement...what you seem to be calling "into the path". He was already in the path long before that....when they were about 15 feet apart. After that, he was moving to maintain a position in the path, i.e. LGP.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Moving towards is certainly not allowed, but moving sideways is exactly what is allowed. Until the shooter leaves the floor, the defender has the right to continue sideways movement...what you seem to be calling "into the path". He was already in the path long before that....when they were about 15 feet apart. After that, he was moving to maintain a position in the path, i.e. LGP.

I concur. This is a textbook charging foul (PC).
Bryan doesn't understand legal defensive movement. The offensive player is not airborne at the time of contact, so the defender is permitted by rule to be moving sideways. Had the offensive player left the floor, the defender would need to stop sliding to his left.

[BryanV21]

Without doing the freezeframe thing, it looked like the defender took another step sideways (right before contact his left foot moves another few inches to his left) into the shooter. Sideways or lateral movement is allowed provided it's not towards the opponent when contact occurs.

By pausing and going frame by frame (as best I can, at least), it does look like the defender's left foot touches the floor before contact. Therefore, the defender did not move sideways into the shooter. Basically, the defender beat him to the spot.

BTW, I understand LGP and how to maintain it. I'm just not somebody that is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense. It's like in baseball... either the runner is out or the runner is safe. There's no "well, the shortstop made a great stop and throw, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and call the runner out". Doing that is a cop-out. Not that the call is easy to make, but it should come down to how you saw the play, not whether playing defense is hard or not.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

Without doing the freezeframe thing, it looked like the defender took another step sideways (right before contact his left foot moves another few inches to his left) into the shooter. Sideways or lateral movement is allowed provided it's not towards the opponent when contact occurs.

By pausing and going frame by frame (as best I can, at least), it does look like the defender's left foot touches the floor before contact. Therefore, the defender did not move sideways into the shooter. Basically, the defender beat him to the spot.

BTW, I understand LGP and how to maintain it.....

By your description, you're not.

Whether his foot touches the floor or not just before contact is completely irrelevant. He had LGP well before that time with both feet down. He does not have to get them both back down before contact.

You keep saying something about moving "into the shooter". That defender was moving towards the endline with every step he took. Unless the shooter got by him, there was no way he was "moving into the shooter". I think you're confusing moving to stay in the shooter's path (legal) with moving into the shooter (not legal).

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

BTW, I understand LGP and how to maintain it. I'm just not somebody that is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense. It's like in baseball... either the runner is out or the runner is safe. There's no "well, the shortstop made a great stop and throw, so I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and call the runner out". Doing that is a cop-out. Not that the call is easy to make, but it should come down to how you saw the play, not whether playing defense is hard or not.

Sorry but I disagree. Too many times I have seen us penalize good defense. Often times we are too easy to find that the defensive player did something wrong. We should be more along the lines of innocent until proven guilty. We need to assume the defensive play is legal until the prove to us they violated the rule. In this play, the defender does a good job beating the player down the floor and getting in front of him. Look we all know where the offensive guy is going the defender got way out in front of him and took the play away. This is a PC Call any day in my book....Philosophically calling this a PC call also reduces rough play. By calling this a Block your telling the offensive players that you will allow that continued play and continue to reward the offense forcing its self in on plays...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

Sorry but I disagree. Too many times I have seen us penalize good defense. Often times we are too easy to find that the defensive player did something wrong. We should be more along the lines of innocent until proven guilty. We need to assume the defensive play is legal until the prove to us they violated the rule. In this play, the defender does a good job beating the player down the floor and getting in front of him. Look we all know where the offensive guy is going the defender got way out in front of him and took the play away. This is a PC Call any day in my book....Philosophically calling this a PC call also reduces rough play. By calling this a Block your telling the offensive players that you will allow that continued play and continue to reward the offense forcing its self in on plays...

I agree.

It seems many officials are looking at the defense and looking for a reason to put a foul on the defender -- in actuality, there are times when we should say "good enough" and send it the other way.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

...
BTW, I understand LGP and how to maintain it. I'm just not somebody that is going to give the benefit of the doubt to the defense. ...

Why should you be giving the benefit of the doubt to the offense?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Why should you be giving the benefit of the doubt to the offense?

I thought I was pretty clear that you shouldn't give the benefit of the doubt to anyone.

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[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BryanV21

The rule says the defender must move sideways or obliquely to maintain LGP. Which, to me, means in such a way as to not be moving towards or into the path of the shooter/dribbler. There is certainly movement by the defender, I'm just not sure it is legal movement.

As Camron Rust and I have told you, you are misapplying the rules on this type of play. Please take a look at Play #4 in this other thread for another example.

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...est-video.html

The offensive player is not yet airborne and the defender is definitely moving sideways at the time of contact. This is legal defensive movement.