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-   -   Backcourt Violation or Not? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/102267-backcourt-violation-not.html)

WhistlesAndStripes Thu Feb 16, 2017 04:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1000430)
In the situation of a one handed pass off of a dribble, at what point does the dribble end? I don't have a rulebook in front of me, but unless there is a definition that specifically states otherwise, I would think that a dribble ends when it can no longer be dribbled legally, such as when grabbed by both hands, or the passing hand goes under the ball such that a subsequent dribble would be called a carry. In the video, at the last possible instant, if the passer decided to instead continue dribbling, I think she legally could have, therefore, I would think the dribble doesn't actually end until it leaves her hand. So it had backcourt status due to the dribbling exception, it then leaves her hand causing the dribble to end with the ball still having backcourt status, and is retrieved by a teammate in the backcourt. Thoughts on that reasoning?
I agree.

Rich Thu Feb 16, 2017 04:12pm
Comes to rest in one hand, albeit very briefly.

Camron Rust Thu Feb 16, 2017 04:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1000433)
Comes to rest in one hand, albeit very briefly.
Agree.

bucky Thu Feb 16, 2017 04:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1000423)
How does she pass the ball? At that moment the dribble's ended and the ball has frontcourt status assuming the only thing touching is in the frontcourt.
I never see her left hand touch the ball (grainy video) and it looks to me as if she makes a one handed pass across the court. I do not see the ball ever come to rest in her hand(s).

I am not debating what you are saying. I am only indicating what I see and do not see in the video.

These fines are killing me.

bucky Thu Feb 16, 2017 04:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes (Post 1000426)
The way she passes the ball is more like she's continuing to dribble, but then decides to send the "next dribble" as the pass. She never really ended her dribble, and the ball never gains FC status IMO.
?
That is what I saw too.

BigT Thu Feb 16, 2017 04:34pm
Did she gain some kind of advantage with that pass? Wasnt the girl still in trouble. Wasnt the count still going? I never want to be that good and have to explain to a coach. Well I felt she ended her dribble had clear front court status and passed into the backcourt.

I would have passed on this one. Keep the game moving.

so cal lurker Thu Feb 16, 2017 05:28pm
So is the consensus that:
1. If the ball came to rest in her hand in such a way that she could not continue to dribble, then FC status was achieved, and a BC violation occurred, but
2. If she batted/pushed the ball in a way that would be permissible while she continued to dribble, then the dribble did not end, so the three point test still applied, and there is no BC violation?

And the disagreement is over whether the ball came to rest in her hand before the pass was made? (From this angle/clarity of video, I think either interpretation of the factual issue is reasonable.)

MD Longhorn Thu Feb 16, 2017 05:50pm
Put me in the minority ... I don't think she ended her dribble, and I don't see the ball come to rest in her hand at all.

Rich Thu Feb 16, 2017 05:51pm
She did. She avoided a potential turnover on a trap. Penalizing good defense if you ask me.

frezer11 Thu Feb 16, 2017 06:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich (Post 1000442)
She did. She avoided a potential turnover on a trap. Penalizing good defense if you ask me.
So if no teammate was at the other end of the court, and she made the exact same movements, and then tracked the ball down, you'd have an illegal dribble? If so fair enough and I'd agree, I just don't ever clearly see a point where I tell myself, "yes, that dribble has ended."

Camron Rust Thu Feb 16, 2017 06:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frezer11 (Post 1000443)
So if no teammate was at the other end of the court, and she made the exact same movements, and then tracked the ball down, you'd have an illegal dribble? If so fair enough and I'd agree, I just don't ever clearly see a point where I tell myself, "yes, that dribble has ended."
This is one of those cases where they dribble certainly "ended" but we may not know for an absolute certainty until later.....when it is clear that it was a pass.

It was pretty clear that was a pass. While it is possible for it to have been a dribble, how many times have you seen player dribble 30 feet away from and into pressure?

Camron Rust Thu Feb 16, 2017 06:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1000435)
I never see her left hand touch the ball (grainy video)
And that matters how?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1000435)
and it looks to me as if she makes a one handed pass across the court. I do not see the ball ever come to rest in her hand(s).
OK. Again, how is that relevant?

Note that "hand(s)" is to be interpreted to be either one hand or both hands. When you say she made a one handed pass across the court, you're likely also saying the ball came to rest in that one hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1000435)
I am not debating what you are saying. I am only indicating what I see and do not see in the video.
What you see is not a problem. It is how you're interpreting what you've seen relative to the rules.

BigCat Thu Feb 16, 2017 06:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky (Post 1000436)
That is what I saw too.
I look at the play and recognize it as something I've seen million times. I'd bet anybody's house (not my own) that her left hand was also on ball. Then pass. Also ball doesn't get from where she is to other side of floor without ending dribble. Even if left hand not on it.

Now, if u ask me to forget everything I know, all past history, how ball gets over to other side of floor and say, do I see the moment on this film when dribble ends? I'd have to say no. But I still think it's obvious dribble ended.

Clear as mud.

Raymond Thu Feb 16, 2017 09:50pm
I have an ended dribble and a pass

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

AremRed Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistles & Stripes (Post 1000431)
Which of the 5 criteria in the book would you say were met in order to determine that she ended her dribble?
What's the 5th?


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