Originally Posted by RedAndWhiteRef (Post 998058)

I have the foul before the shot as well. Had she thrown the ball at the basket before finishing the jump stop, I would have a shooting foul (not that it was really feasible in this situation).

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 998061)

"No shot. Possession underneath."

Originally Posted by BigCat (Post 998047)

Geesh. He called the foul on the contact that happened before she even hit the ground after jump stop. She obviously isn't started up yet. Again, not even a close call..

Is number 4 your daughter by chance? I know you are for your kids so I don't want to be harsh... but I dont see any of these plays in her/your favor..

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 998071)

Not shooting foul if you ask me. The move was a jump stop, not an active part of the shot.

Peace

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 998157)

I am joining the party late with regard to this thread but there are a select few on this Forum that understand why I have not be responding in a more timely manner. None-the-less I would like to add my two cents to the conversation.


FIRST: With respect to the size of the screen: I like the full size screen embedded into the post. I find that it makes it easier for me to make stop-action viewing of the video.


SECOND: Yes, I also noticed the white undershirt being worn by B-10, and BillyMac is already thinking that the officials ignoring this infraction really fried my tuchus. :p!


THIRD: I want to address the play being discussed. I want to apologize in advance for the length of my comments, and including in some instances quoting the entire rule rather than just giving the rule number. But those old hands of the Forum that know me, know that I can be very methodical (it is just my profession creeping into my breakdown of basketball officiating plays) and I believe that the play being discussed lends itself to being broken down almost second-by-second, frame-by-frame because the number of rule sections that must be applied in order to get the correct call. Therefore, without further ado, I will address the following comments by other members of the Forum.









1) The first foul I see by B-10 against W-4 is at T = 0:10 while W-4 is still dribbling the ball. But I do not think that is the foul that we are discussing; I think that we would agree that we all would pass on the hand check foul.

2) W-4 ends her dribble by letting the ball come to rest in both of her hands while her left foot is on the floor and her right foot off the floor at 11.0 = T < 11.5.

3) I believe the foul the poster wants to discuss and the one we are discussing occurs at 0:11.5 = T < 12.0.

4) NFHS R4-S44-A2b2 says: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot if one foot is on the floor. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case."

5) NFHS R4-S44-A3b says: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

6) NFHS R4-S11-A1 says: "Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight."

7) NFHS R4-S11-A2 says: "If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or *stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."

8) NFHS R4-S41-A3 says: "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

9) (4) and (5) tells us that W-4 can end her dribble while her left foot is in contact with the court and her right foot is not in contact with the court. She can then jump off her left foot and land simultaneously on both feet. She can then jump off both feet to release the ball to either pass the ball or attempt a shot.

10) We also know that a player cannot shoot the ball while dribbling the ball. That means that a player dribbling the ball must stop her dribble in order to shoot the ball.

11) Combining (8), (9), and (10) tells us that W-4's shot started when she ended her dribble and ended when she released the ball. Therefore, by rule, W-4 was fouled by B-10 while in the act of shooting. This also applies to NCAA Men's/Women's. Some of you will say that the I am applying the NBA/WNBA rule to the NFHS and NCAA Men'/Women's rule. And while the wording of the NBA/WNBA rule is not the same as the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules, the application is the same.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by Rich (Post 998158)

The place where this analysis, IMO, falls down is this:

In (9), the player can either shoot or pass at the end of the jump stop. I have no idea which she will do here, because she was fouled before the end of the jump stop.

End line throw in for me, too.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 998157)

I am joining the party late with regard to this thread but there are a select few on this Forum that understand why I have not be responding in a more timely manner. None-the-less I would like to add my two cents to the conversation.


FIRST: With respect to the size of the screen: I like the full size screen embedded into the post. I find that it makes it easier for me to make stop-action viewing of the video.


SECOND: Yes, I also noticed the white undershirt being worn by B-10, and BillyMac is already thinking that the officials ignoring this infraction really fried my tuchus. :p!


THIRD: I want to address the play being discussed. I want to apologize in advance for the length of my comments, and including in some instances quoting the entire rule rather than just giving the rule number. But those old hands of the Forum that know me, know that I can be very methodical (it is just my profession creeping into my breakdown of basketball officiating plays) and I believe that the play being discussed lends itself to being broken down almost second-by-second, frame-by-frame because the number of rule sections that must be applied in order to get the correct call. Therefore, without further ado, I will address the following comments by other members of the Forum.









1) The first foul I see by B-10 against W-4 is at T = 0:10 while W-4 is still dribbling the ball. But I do not think that is the foul that we are discussing; I think that we would agree that we all would pass on the hand check foul.

2) W-4 ends her dribble by letting the ball come to rest in both of her hands while her left foot is on the floor and her right foot off the floor at 11.0 = T < 11.5.

3) I believe the foul the poster wants to discuss and the one we are discussing occurs at 0:11.5 = T < 12.0.

4) NFHS R4-S44-A2b2 says: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot if one foot is on the floor. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case."

5) NFHS R4-S44-A3b says: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

6) NFHS R4-S11-A1 says: "Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight."

7) NFHS R4-S11-A2 says: "If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or *stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."

8) NFHS R4-S41-A3 says: "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

9) (4) and (5) tells us that W-4 can end her dribble while her left foot is in contact with the court and her right foot is not in contact with the court. She can then jump off her left foot and land simultaneously on both feet. She can then jump off both feet to release the ball to either pass the ball or attempt a shot.

10) We also know that a player cannot shoot the ball while dribbling the ball. That means that a player dribbling the ball must stop her dribble in order to shoot the ball.

11) Combining (8), (9), and (10) tells us that W-4's shot started when she ended her dribble and ended when she released the ball. Therefore, by rule, W-4 was fouled by B-10 while in the act of shooting. This also applies to NCAA Men's/Women's. Some of you will say that the I am applying the NBA/WNBA rule to the NFHS and NCAA Men'/Women's rule. And while the wording of the NBA/WNBA rule is not the same as the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules, the application is the same.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 998172)

Way to over-analyze a simple block with the in-bounds spot being the endline.

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 998171)

Before the shot for me. And I don't understand why that shirt is allowed in a high school game.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 998157)

FIRST: With respect to the size of the screen: I like the full size screen embedded into the post. I find that it makes it easier for me to make stop-action viewing of the video.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 998175)

Simple, no one cares about these things.

Peace

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 998177)

Fair point. Around here, it would be dealt with quickly. That's what's expected here. Normally, I think the issue is a bit silly, especially when it's a player who's wearing an u/a shirt where all you see is a bit around the neckline. This play, however, is a blue player wearing white long sleeves while playing a white team.

I'd gladly shut that down, but if your area wants you to ignore it, have at it.

Originally Posted by Adam (Post 998177)

Fair point. Around here, it would be dealt with quickly. That's what's expected here. Normally, I think the issue is a bit silly, especially when it's a player who's wearing an u/a shirt where all you see is a bit around the neckline. This play, however, is a blue player wearing white long sleeves while playing a white team.

I'd gladly shut that down, but if your area wants you to ignore it, have at it.

Originally Posted by BillyMac (Post 998062)

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M...=0&w=207&h=156

The day after our interpreter, in a monthly board meeting, told us that enforcing the equipment color restrictions was not optional, I had a veteran official tell me that he didn't enforce the restrictions in his game because it was only a junior varsity game.

A few days later, on the first page of the newspaper's sports section, was a large above the fold photo from the biggest girls varsity game of the night (maybe of the entire season) in the entire state, officiated by another local board. Dark gray undershirt under a white jersey.

Originally Posted by deecee (Post 998172)

Way to over-analyze a simple block with the in-bounds spot being the endline.

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. (Post 998157)

I am joining the party late with regard to this thread but there are a select few on this Forum that understand why I have not be responding in a more timely manner. None-the-less I would like to add my two cents to the conversation.


FIRST: With respect to the size of the screen: I like the full size screen embedded into the post. I find that it makes it easier for me to make stop-action viewing of the video.


SECOND: Yes, I also noticed the white undershirt being worn by B-10, and BillyMac is already thinking that the officials ignoring this infraction really fried my tuchus. :p!


THIRD: I want to address the play being discussed. I want to apologize in advance for the length of my comments, and including in some instances quoting the entire rule rather than just giving the rule number. But those old hands of the Forum that know me, know that I can be very methodical (it is just my profession creeping into my breakdown of basketball officiating plays) and I believe that the play being discussed lends itself to being broken down almost second-by-second, frame-by-frame because the number of rule sections that must be applied in order to get the correct call. Therefore, without further ado, I will address the following comments by other members of the Forum.









1) The first foul I see by B-10 against W-4 is at T = 0:10 while W-4 is still dribbling the ball. But I do not think that is the foul that we are discussing; I think that we would agree that we all would pass on the hand check foul.

2) W-4 ends her dribble by letting the ball come to rest in both of her hands while her left foot is on the floor and her right foot off the floor at 11.0 = T < 11.5.

3) I believe the foul the poster wants to discuss and the one we are discussing occurs at 0:11.5 = T < 12.0.

4) NFHS R4-S44-A2b2 says: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot if one foot is on the floor. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case."

5) NFHS R4-S44-A3b says: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

6) NFHS R4-S11-A1 says: "Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight."

7) NFHS R4-S11-A2 says: "If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or *stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."

8) NFHS R4-S41-A3 says: "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

9) (4) and (5) tells us that W-4 can end her dribble while her left foot is in contact with the court and her right foot is not in contact with the court. She can then jump off her left foot and land simultaneously on both feet. She can then jump off both feet to release the ball to either pass the ball or attempt a shot.

10) We also know that a player cannot shoot the ball while dribbling the ball. That means that a player dribbling the ball must stop her dribble in order to shoot the ball.

11) Combining (8), (9), and (10) tells us that W-4's shot started when she ended her dribble and ended when she released the ball. Therefore, by rule, W-4 was fouled by B-10 while in the act of shooting. This also applies to NCAA Men's/Women's. Some of you will say that the I am applying the NBA/WNBA rule to the NFHS and NCAA Men'/Women's rule. And while the wording of the NBA/WNBA rule is not the same as the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules, the application is the same.

MTD, Sr.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 998077)

I'm aware, it is just too darn big for a normal screen on this website.

Peace