Does Continuation Apply?
 

Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sqOkyBVKJBk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Geesh. He called the foul on the contact that happened before she even hit the ground after jump stop. She obviously isn't started up yet. Again, not even a close call..

Is number 4 your daughter by chance? I know you are for your kids so I don't want to be harsh... but I dont see any of these plays in her/your favor..

Why is the defender wearing a white shirt under her blue jersey?

I have the foul before the shot as well. Had she thrown the ball at the basket before finishing the jump stop, I would have a shooting foul (not that it was really feasible in this situation).

Unless They're In The Bonus ...
 

"No shot. Possession underneath."

Tip Of The Hat To Walt Kelly ...
 

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M...=0&w=207&h=156

The day after our interpreter, in a monthly board meeting, told us that enforcing the equipment color restrictions was not optional, I had a veteran official tell me that he didn't enforce the restrictions in his game because it was only a junior varsity game.

A few days later, on the first page of the newspaper's sports section, was a large above the fold photo from the biggest girls varsity game of the night (maybe of the entire season) in the entire state, officiated by another local board. Dark gray undershirt under a white jersey.

Interesting, but I am trying to figure out why the videos are so big in the thread?

Peace

Not shooting foul if you ask me. The move was a jump stop, not an active part of the shot.

Peace

You can specify how big they should be...

<iframe width="128" height="72" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sqOkyBVKJBk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


<iframe width="256" height="144" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sqOkyBVKJBk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


<iframe width="512" height="288" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/sqOkyBVKJBk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I'm aware, it is just too darn big for a normal screen on this website.

Peace

For the opposite opinion -- I find most of the videos too small. Just personal preference.

I do think that the videos should be stripped from any quoting, however (either automatically, or the poster doing the quoting should edit the quote to remove the video)

I usually click the button to go full screen on the video's because they're too small. But I don't mind them being small in the thread.

I like the fact that these videos are posted with sufficient resolution to be clearly watch.

Videos that I post for example are never altered. I do not enlarge them or shrink them. And since all my videos come from YouTube hosting them, you can go directly to the website to view them if needed. But these current videos are expanding the page and hard to view in the thread. Again, not the end of the world, just it makes the videos hard to view without significant adjustment. My videos or others that have been posted do not alter the page.

Peace

I agree, they're a little too big.

FWIW, the videos are not altered. The "iframe" in which they are embedded is what is sized. The video is the same....it just fills the space it is allotted.

I noticed that right away. I actually had to re-watch the play because this distracted me.

Oh... not a shooting foul.

I am joining the party late with regard to this thread but there are a select few on this Forum that understand why I have not be responding in a more timely manner. None-the-less I would like to add my two cents to the conversation.


FIRST: With respect to the size of the screen: I like the full size screen embedded into the post. I find that it makes it easier for me to make stop-action viewing of the video.


SECOND: Yes, I also noticed the white undershirt being worn by B-10, and BillyMac is already thinking that the officials ignoring this infraction really fried my tuchus. :p!


THIRD: I want to address the play being discussed. I want to apologize in advance for the length of my comments, and including in some instances quoting the entire rule rather than just giving the rule number. But those old hands of the Forum that know me, know that I can be very methodical (it is just my profession creeping into my breakdown of basketball officiating plays) and I believe that the play being discussed lends itself to being broken down almost second-by-second, frame-by-frame because the number of rule sections that must be applied in order to get the correct call. Therefore, without further ado, I will address the following comments by other members of the Forum.

1) The first foul I see by B-10 against W-4 is at T = 0:10 while W-4 is still dribbling the ball. But I do not think that is the foul that we are discussing; I think that we would agree that we all would pass on the hand check foul.

2) W-4 ends her dribble by letting the ball come to rest in both of her hands while her left foot is on the floor and her right foot off the floor at 11.0 = T < 11.5.

3) I believe the foul the poster wants to discuss and the one we are discussing occurs at 0:11.5 = T < 12.0.

4) NFHS R4-S44-A2b2 says: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: A player, who catches the ball while moving or dribbling, may stop, and establish a pivot foot if one foot is on the floor. The player may jump off that foot and simultaneously land on both. Neither foot can be a pivot in this case."

5) NFHS R4-S44-A3b says: "Traveling is moving a foot or feet in any direction in excess of prescribed limits while holding the ball. The limits on foot movements are as follows: After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot. If the player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal."

6) NFHS R4-S11-A1 says: "Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight."

7) NFHS R4-S11-A2 says: "If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or *stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."

8) NFHS R4-S41-A3 says: "The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball."

9) (4) and (5) tells us that W-4 can end her dribble while her left foot is in contact with the court and her right foot is not in contact with the court. She can then jump off her left foot and land simultaneously on both feet. She can then jump off both feet to release the ball to either pass the ball or attempt a shot.

10) We also know that a player cannot shoot the ball while dribbling the ball. That means that a player dribbling the ball must stop her dribble in order to shoot the ball.

11) Combining (8), (9), and (10) tells us that W-4's shot started when she ended her dribble and ended when she released the ball. Therefore, by rule, W-4 was fouled by B-10 while in the act of shooting. This also applies to NCAA Men's/Women's. Some of you will say that the I am applying the NBA/WNBA rule to the NFHS and NCAA Men'/Women's rule. And while the wording of the NBA/WNBA rule is not the same as the NFHS and NCAA Men's/Women's rules, the application is the same.

MTD, Sr.

The place where this analysis, IMO, falls down is this:

In (9), the player can either shoot or pass at the end of the jump stop. I have no idea which she will do here, because she was fouled before the end of the jump stop.

End line throw in for me, too.

What he said. I am big about awarding shots to a player who is in their shooting motion but who maybe hasn't left the floor yet, but this one I can't see it. She is not clearly in a shooting motion when the foul occurs.

Before the shot for me. And I don't understand why that shirt is allowed in a high school game.

Way to over-analyze a simple block with the in-bounds spot being the endline.

Sometimes you just have to ref.

Simple, no one cares about these things.

Peace

Why would that make it easier unless you cannot click on the video directly to do the same. YouTube embedded videos are very easy to navigate. All you have to do is push on the video (with your mouse or touch screen) and the video stops and starts.

I only made a comment about it because to watch the video I either had to go to YouTube directly or I had to make the website smaller in my settings. Just kind of annoying and not a big deal. But not something most videos from YouTube require.

Peace

Fair point. Around here, it would be dealt with quickly. That's what's expected here. Normally, I think the issue is a bit silly, especially when it's a player who's wearing an u/a shirt where all you see is a bit around the neckline. This play, however, is a blue player wearing white long sleeves while playing a white team.

I'd gladly shut that down, but if your area wants you to ignore it, have at it.

I did not say that people did not care about this here. We are asked to enforce those rules. But honestly, it is a pain in the behind. It is not something that is the thing most officials want to deal with either way. The only reason many do is because it will influence future playoff opportunities. Otherwise, I could give a darn. Why would I care about the color of a shirt? Does it influence the game? Can I still see the jersey? Heck if this was a problem during off-season games I could see this being a big concerned, but that is clearly not the case. This is strictly cosmetic which at the end of the day some of us just want to referee the game, not tell players what they cannot wear.

Peace

Yes, here it would be dealt with as soon as we saw it.

*ohhhh noooo!

I have a push but agree.

Despite MTD giving his resume and dissertation on some of theses videos, I just don't see what he is seeing.

I award free throws as much or more than most of the folks I work with and in comparison with the other HS games I observe. I almost always give the benefit of the doubt to putting players on the line.

To me, this one is easy. Push on blue 10 (with the illegal shirt) and spot on the endline opposite the table.

1. The player did not travel. It was a legal jump stop.
2. Continuous motion applies to try.
3.no significance unless foul by defense during interval which begins with habitual THROWING motion to start a try.
4. If opponent fouls AFTER player has started try for goal player can complete customary arm and foot movement.
5. A player must stop dribble before shooting it.
6. No shot EVER starts when a player ends her dribble. There ALWAYS must be something more.
7. No shot/try ever ends when she releases the ball.

What you are saying is a player cannot shoot without ending a dribble (which is true) Therefore, that is something that habitually precedes release of ball. That is also true. (JUST AS THE PLAYER WAKING UP IN THE AM. Cant shoot if sleeping)

You are declaring that player is in act because the jump stop happens before the act of shooting all the time. (Habitually precedes) The rule is that the ACT of shooting must happen FIRST and then the player can continue with foot movements.

I do not agree with your post rule wise Or simply watching the video. This isnt a close play. Endline throw in.

It looks great on a 24" monitor.

I do appreciate the clarity of the videos also.

That said, I agree with the majority that I have the foul preceding the shooting motion. Endline spot.

I want to see the girl hold the ball for 4 seconds after the jumpstop, launch, and have MTD count the bucket.

I'll pay the young lady's way to Ohio.

Colour My World (Chicago, 1970) ...
 

After working a few scrimmages early this season where we allowed players to wear a variety of colors for undershirts under scrimmage vests, I can say that players on the same team wearing all the same color undershirt, and players on the other team wearing a different color undershirt (all the same color), makes officiating a little easier, especially calling those rebounding fouls in a crowd of players under the basket.

My concern isn't the officials. We can always take an extra second, it's a white player seeing sleeves out of the corner of her eye and making a pass. Split second decisions can be altered due to that much white on a blue player.

OK, but the resolution does not change based on the size of the video. The quality only changes by the computer feed you have and quality of your computer. Oh well.

Peace

I am sitting in the dressing room getting ready to officiate a Special Olympics game at 06:30pm so I do not have the capability of quoting chapter and verse. This is my first game officiating since January 12th and I really should not be officiating (those select few know why) but against my family and my doctors' better judgement I am going to suck it up and officiate through the hip pain.

That said, I think that everyone taking part in this discussion will agree that W-4 stopped her dribble while her left foot was in contact with the court and her right foot was not. She then continued non-stop (continuously): to jump off of her left foot, then land, simultaneously on both feet, and jumped off both feet simultaneously, and while in the air released the ball toward Team W's basket and the ball went through her team's basket.

Now, let us take B-10 out of the play. In other words B-10 does not foul W-4. I would like to ask all of those members of the forum who have taken the position that W-4 was not fouled in the act of shooting to tell me if W-4's basket should or should not be scored, and why? Please do not forget to quote chapter and verse.

Time to join Mark, Jr., on the court. Later tonight everyone.

MTD, Sr.

Count it....uhhh, because live ball went through basket. There is nothing in this video showing player began her throwing motion until after she landed on jump stop. The jump stop doesn't count as part of the act because foot movement doesn't count until you are in the act. Begin throwing motion.

Mark, I'm going to humor you and ask you how your question is relevant. You can't take out a major part of the play like that. Of course the shot would have counted if she hadn't been fouled.

You're saying the shooting motion starts when she begins her jump stop?

I know you are asking him but that is what he said in paragraph 11 of his ...whatever we call it. He actually said it starts when the dribble ends. Same thing..different words

I honestly didn't read this version of the dissertation. Thanks for taking the time for me.

I'll just quickly disagree with that assessment of this particular play.

Yes, for some reason I read it all:confused:

A jumpstop is not part of the habitual throwing movement. That should be clear to everyone, despite what MTD says.

Let me point out that the continuous motion rule states that the throwing motion must have started BEFORE the time of the foul for any stepping or arm movement to be permitted.

Mark, Jr., and I are having dinner after our game right now. We were officiating S.O. in Defiance, Ohio, tonight. Still have about 45 minutes before we are home. Therefore, I will not be responding to any comments tonight except to say that NevadaRef can think of the same three or four other plays that will prove my point.

Have a great evening everyone.

MTD, Sr.

Do not miss the point. It is not the biggest priority. And I have done other games were we never dictate what what is worn or even the jersey and somehow we get it right. I guess if players skin tones were all the same that would make it easier too, but we know if they have nothing on chances are we are dealing with the same issue of the color of their arms or legs. I just find worrying about it beyond what your state wants as kind of silly in general.

Peace

It does say "continuous motion".

Not relevant since all players can wear white sleeves, black sleeves, etc. that cover far more than the arms on a typical undershirt.

I'm in the minority with Mark. Continuous motion (NFHS) states .....if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. Shooting, Try, Tap (NFHS) states...The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the the ball.

In my opinion the player ended her dribble, started her 1st step while holding the ball, was then pushed (fouled), completed a legal jump stop and released the ball for a try.

I keep thinking would the view change if the 2nd movement was a step with the right foot (instead of the jump stop) and then the release of the ball? Is the jump stop throwing off the play? To me continuous motion says that shooting motions can start from the floor and the player still has the right to complete the usual movement.

Resource:
Basketball - Continuous Motion - Referee Magazine

" the true determining factor in ruling to award free throws or not is what the player is doing at the time of the foul. The player is doing one of three things: dribbling, passing or shooting."

The continuous motion rule requires the "habitual throwing movement" to start first. Then a player is allowed to complete customary foot movement.

Also, you are only looking at the 3 article in the try rule when you say "try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes release of ball." If you look at Art 2 you will see that that language is referring to throwing the ball and not foot movement. Foot movement doesn't count until there's something you can call a throwing motion.

The jump stop begins and ends before the player ever starts the throwing motion. She is actually in the air landing at time of the foul. Everything is going down and nothing up at that moment. End line throw in.

The amazing thing about the Referee article is what I have said has been the the way the game as been officiated for well over 50 years. What you have said is the essence of the Continuous Motion rule. The rule is written such that a defensive player does not gain an unfair advantage over the offensive player in this situation. I am about to post two plays (actually four plays) for everyone to study.

MTD, Sr.

I should be taking my post-lunch nap right now in preparation for the girls' JrHS basketball DH I am not supposed to be officiating this afternoon, but I promised that I would get back with some plays. Big Cat I would hope that you will take a real good look at them and give me your rulings.

I should also like to address the poster who referred to my initial post as a "disertation". Yes, it seemed long, but my comments were meant to show that even a simple play as the one in the video we are discussing can and does have many rules that must be applied simultaneously. I am a (retired) structural engineer and was a rules interpreter for ten years (as well as an OhioHSAA Certified Basketball Officiating Instructor) and sat on two IAABO National Committees for instruction and exams and that attention to detail is just how I do things.


Play A: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed
center is set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 either: 1)
receives a pass from A2 and in one continuous motion picks up his left foot
and starts to step across the lane jumping off his right foot then landing on his
left foot and then jumps off his left foot, and then either: a) releases the ball
on a pass to A3, or b) releases the ball for a sky-hook that kisses the glass on
it way through the basket; or 2) after stopping his dribble and in one
continuous motion picks up in left foot and starts to step across the lane
jumping off his right foot then landing on his left foot and then jumps off of his
left foot, and then either: a) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or b) releases the ball for a sky-hook that kisses the glass on it way through the basket. In both Play A-1 and Play A-2, A1 is fouled by B1 after he has starts to step with his left foot but before but before he releases the ball for the pass in (a) or the sky hook in (b). What it your Ruling?


Play B: A1: 1) catches a pass from A2 while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball: a) on a pass to A3, or b)a layup high and soft off of the backboard that goes through the basket; or 2) A1 ends her dribble while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, the jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball: a) on a pass to A3, or b) a layup high and soft off of the backboard that goes through the basket. In Play B-1 A1 is fouled by B1 after she has caught the ball and anytime before she releases the ball for the pass in (a) or the layup in (b). In Play B-2 A1 is fouled by B1 after she ends her dribble and anytime before she releases the ball for the pass in (a) or the layup in (b). What it your Ruling?

Do not forget to cite NFHS Rules and Casebook Plays (and would like everyone that NCAA Rules and Approved Rules will be the same as the NFHS Rules and Casebook Plays).

MTD, Sr.

[QUOTE=xyrph;998045]Rule 4.41.3 The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

Interesting observations from prior comments.

Are we applying Rule 4.11.2 correctly::confused:

ART. 2 . . . If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to
complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the
usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted
only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in
flight.

First, a rule uses dashes -- so it's 4-11-2.

Second, some of us are. One person from Ohio (who shouldn't be officiating right now but is, and a select few here know why) is not.

(Sorry this is long)

Big Cat, to me, Section 41 Art 2 is giving us the definition of a try for field goal (an attempt by a player to score...) and continues with what a try for goal looks like (throwing or attempting to throw) and states a caveat that the ball does not actually have to leave the player's hand. I think it’s safe to say we all understand the definition of a try.

To me Section 41 Art 3 goes into more detail as to WHEN the try actually starts (when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball).

Question for all officials:
1. Does Art 3 say that the try starts when the player 'begins the hand motion'? Arm motion? Feet motion? Head motion?

Answer: It does not specify any part of the body. It simply says 'the motion'. Why is that?

I’m not completely sure but I would say there are quite a few plays that involve motion such as steps or pivoting before the release of the ball for a try for field goal. Someone is always taking steps for a layup, floater, finger roll, or last second heave to the goal, etc. Does it matter what the ball is doing during these steps or is it what the player is doing?

Some say the ball needs to be going upward at the point of the foul. WHY??? What does the position of the ball have to do when fouled? What if the player wraps the ball around his/her back while stepping or what if the player holds the ball tightly on the hip while stepping or puts the ball behind his/her head while stepping?

The article says and I agree that "the true determining factor in ruling to award free throws or not is WHAT THE PLAYER IS DOING at the time of the foul. The player is doing one of three things: dribbling, passing or shooting."

If we were to apply this logic to our scenario or any other, once the dribble ends and the ball is being held we as officials have to determine is the player passing or shooting (as dribbling was eliminated when the ball was held). Now Big Cat I agree we have to look at Art 2 and Art 3 together because it will help us determine if the player is passing or shooting. We either have an attempt to score or an attempt to pass.

How do we determine which? Art 2 says its "in the official's judgment". For me I let the play start, develop, and finish. The question is answered for me in Rule 4 Section 11 Art 2 when I allow the player to "complete the customary arm movement....or usual foot or body movement". At this point, the foul should not make the ball dead unless the player was dribbling.

If the player attempts a shot, then I rule a try. If the player does not look to shoot and passes, then I rule no try - ball dead. If the player looks to shoot and loses the ball or balance or whatever and then passes, then it gets tricky and is a true judgment scenario as to awarding a try.

In our scenario, the player ended the dribble, took the 1st step, was fouled (while bringing the ball up which really shouldn’t matter), completed a jump stop, and a try for field goal. Award 2 points plus 1 FT.

I like this..

4-11-1:

Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by any defensive player during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

-------------

There is no way that going into a jump stop is after the "habitual throwing motion" has started.

Rich:

Before you stand by your most recent statement I would suggest that you review the plays that I posted because legal foot work prior to the release of the shot does matter.

MTD, Sr.

Your referee article author is discussing the play when a player ends a dribble and has to shoot or pass. probably a regular layup move. Is it a shot or a pass? That's what his article is about. The player in that motion is headed up, he's jumping. question is shot or pass? That is why he says only things left are "shot or pass."

In this play the player is on her way "down" on a jump stop when she is fouled. The statement that the player is "dribbling, shooting or passing" applies to the author's play. This girl, again, is on the way down. She can land and do nothing if she wants. It is a different play than your article.

The throwing motion has to start before you think about foot movements counting. You are counting foot movements that happen before the throwing motion as starting the try. That just isn't the rule. The question here is how far back in time do you go to say she starts the trying motion? This girl has to land and then decide if she will stay there, pass or shoot. She's not close to being in the act of shooting.

I do look for some upward movement to consider a player in act. i may error on side of the foul being in act if on breakaway layup or certain other circumstances. I would never, in a billion years, call this play fouled in the act of shooting.

It's footwork after the foul and before the release that matters. Landing and jump stopping doesn't fit that criteria.

The throwing motion has to start first. Legal footwork may matter to decide if the player travels but it means nothing, absolutely nothing, if the throwing motion hasn't started as to whether you say the foul was in act of shooting.

Everyone who has taken the position that W4, in the original video, was not fouled in the act of shooting, has yet to make a ruling for any of the two (actually eight plays within two scenarios) plays that I have posted, are "in the act of shooting" fouls. The fouls in those the plays I have posted require the application of the same rules that I quoted in my first post in the thread with regard to the foul in the video.

MTD, Sr.

Rich:

It is footwork after the dribble as ended that matters. That is the essence of the continuous motion rule. Review that other plays that I have posted and give me your rulings and why?

MTD, Sr.

Mark,

you are right that everyone but you and one other person believe w4 wasn't fouled in act of shooting. And you're right, we haven't read your 8 plays because it isn't necessary. Again, this isn't close.

tl;dr

Big Cat:

My experience as a rules interpreter and instructor tells me that when you tell me that you don't think it is necessary to study similar plays that you do not want to learn. Humor me, and study them, and tell the forum your rulings because I am very interested in your analysis.

MTD, Sr.

ikr?

[QUOTE=Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.;998358]I should be taking my post-lunch nap right now in preparation for the girls' JrHS basketball DH I am not supposed to be officiating this afternoon, but I promised that I would get back with some plays. Big Cat I would hope that you will take a real good look at them and give me your rulings.

I should also like to address the poster who referred to my initial post as a "disertation". Yes, it seemed long, but my comments were meant to show that even a simple play as the one in the video we are discussing can and does have many rules that must be applied simultaneously. I am a (retired) structural engineer and was a rules interpreter for ten years (as well as an OhioHSAA Certified Basketball Officiating Instructor) and sat on two IAABO National Committees for instruction and exams and that attention to detail is just how I do things.


Play A: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed
center is set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 either: 1)
receives a pass from A2 and in one continuous motion picks up his left foot
and starts to step across the lane jumping off his right foot then landing on his
left foot and then jumps off his left foot, and then either: a) releases the ball
on a pass to A3, or b) releases the ball for a sky-hook that kisses the glass on
it way through the basket; or 2) after stopping his dribble and in one
continuous motion picks up in left foot and starts to step across the lane
jumping off his right foot then landing on his left foot and then jumps off of his
left foot, and then either: a) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or b) releases the ball for a sky-hook that kisses the glass on it way through the basket. In both Play A-1 and Play A-2, A1 is fouled by B1 after he has starts to step with his left foot but before but before he releases the ball for the pass in (a) or the sky hook in (b). What it your Ruling?


I'll humor you.

You say he was fouled By B1 after he starts to step with left foot but before he releases ball on sky hook or pass. There's a gap there. If he fouls just after he began the step, arms doing nothing then no shot. If he completes the step, arms start going up,(or started going up before that) then i need to decide shot or pass. i will look at him and the play and decide if he was going to shoot it or dump it. There is a decision there. may error on side of shot. have to see it.

In this other play, w4 has to come down out of the air when she is fouled. She can then stand still, shoot or pass it. She was fouled while going down. It is too far back in time to say that is in the act. The throwing motion has never started.

finally, theres a certain amount of pornography involved here. Habitually precedes release…requires some "i know it when i see it" stuff. This girl is in no way shooting when she's fouled.

Mark,
My experience tells me that you are ignoring the way the game has been played for years and taking a basic play…not in the act of shooting, and trying to plug it into rules and reaching an absurd result. This isn't a close play.

Old dogs can't learn new tricks. I can learn but i can't learn anything from what you are espousing on this thread.

Deecee,

you always make me chuckle. thank you

and:



ART. 2 . . . If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to
complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the
usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted
only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in
flight.

In the play, (and in some of Mark's 8 plays, perhaps -- it was hard to follow) the girls was not pivoting or stepping WHEN FOULED.

Question for Mark.

In the OP, after the player jumps, is fouled, and lands ... that player can (had they not been fouled) immediately jump and shoot ... or they could conceivably wait a second or two, fake, and then shoot (and/or pass). Given your explanation that the entire motion, beginning before the foul, is "the act of shooting" ... if the player were to jump, get fouled, land, wait 2 seconds, and then shoot ... in your opinion, would this still be in the act of shooting?

What if said player went up, got fouled, landed ... and then heard the whistle and didn't do anything at all --- still in the act of shooting?

YES DAMNIT. He's made his point very clearly. Put the kid on the line and shoot 2, or 3 if he's behind the arc.

Absolutely NOT!! That is not continuous motion. I am appalled at how few people do not understand the essence of the Continuous Motion Rule.

It is to damn late for me to get into it tonight.

Good night all!

MTD, Sr.

Bob and Big Cat:

I made the Plays easier for you to follow:

Play A: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed center is set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 receives a pass from A2, and then in one continuous motion: he picks up his left foot, jumps off his right foot (to his left), lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot, and while airborne either: 1) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or 2) releases the ball for a hook shot that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 after he has started to step with his left foot but before but before he releases the ball for his: (1) pass to A3, or (2) hook shot. What it your Ruling?


Play B: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed center is dribbling the ball while set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 stops his dribble and then in one continuous motion: he picks up his left foot, jumps off his right foot (to his left), lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot, and while airborne either: 1) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or 2) releases the ball for a hook shot that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after he has started to step with his left foot but before he releases the ball for his: (1) pass to A3, or (2) hook shot. What it your Ruling?


Play C: A1 catches a pass from A2 while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball: 1) on a pass to A3, or 2) a layup that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after she has caught A2's pass and but before she releases the ball for her: (1) pass to A3, or (2) layup. What it your Ruling?


Play D: A1 is dribbling the ball and ends her dribble while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball for her: 1) on a pass to A3, or 2) a layup that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after she has ended her dribble but before she releases the ball for her: (1) pass to A3, or (2) layup. What it your Ruling?


I started officiating in 1971 and graduated from H.S. in 1969 (and played on two league and sectional championship teams; my H.S. coach was a founding member in 1948 of the LOA in Warren, Ohio, of which I am still a member), and the Continuous Motion Rule and how it is applied has not changed in well over 50 years; my personal collection of NFHS and NCAA rules start in 1971 but I have one NFHS/NCAA Rules Book from 1963, so that is how I know the CMR has not changed in over 50 years.

The CMR was written as such to insure that the shooter was not penalized and the defender rewarded for committing a foul. The authors of the CMR understood that a player that is dribbling the ball cannot shoot the ball and that only after the offensive player has ended his/her dribble can he/she begin his/her try.

The 8 plays that I have provided in this post show how the rules tell us that there are many times when the start of the try is well before the actual release of the ball. The rules do this by not defining what is the "habitual throwing motion", what is "when the habitual throwing motion has started", and what is the "motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball". See NFHS R4-S11-A1 and A2, and NFHS R4-S41-A3.

The rules further define what legal footwork a player make take after he/she ends her dribble. This legal footwork, when done in one continuous movement (or motion) can be considerable between the time of the end of the dribble and the release of the ball on a try. What the rules do not define (or limit for that matter) is how much or how little of that legal footwork can be taken between the time the player ends his/her dribble and releasing the ball for a try. In other words, the authors of the CMR understood that a try for goal was more complex than simply releasing the ball from the shooter's hand.

CMR allows the offensive player to complete any and all legal footwork needed to release the ball for a try. The CMR prevents any foul by the defense during that period between the ending the dribble and prior to the release for a try from negating the try. To allow the try to be negated would give the defense an advantage and the offensive a disadvantage the CMR prevents.

With what I have said in mind, study Plays A2, B2, C2, and D2, and how negating A1's try rewards B1 for fouling and penalizes A1 for being fouled, and how allowing B1 to gain such an advantage is not allowed by the CMR and therefore, the same principle applies to the play in the video.

MTD, Sr.

Are we still discussing fouls which occur during a jump-stop? Too many paragraphs above for me to keep up.

Mark,

All the experience you have does not matter when you try to say that W4 in this video is in the act of shooting on the way down from a jump stop. Reading your play A and some of your comments you believe everything following the end of the dribble , every foot movement, is part of the act of shooting. That is just wrong.

In your play A. You say your 7 footer lifts his left foot, hops off of right to left and then jumps and releases ball on a pass to player whomever or shoots it. You say he was fouled after he stepped with left foot and before the release. I will assume you mean he is fouled some time after he first picks up the left foot. Again, as I said in the earlier post. What are his arms doing? Has he begun the throwing motion. I've done/seen this move. Usually, the player is holding the ball at chin level when he begins this move. If he is fouled just after lifting the left foot and has done nothing else, ball OOB. That isnt a throwing motion. He then hops from right foot to left. If he's fouled then, still want to see what arms doing. Likely they are still low but could be moving up. If he is fouled at any time before the throwing motion, they are going to take the ball OOB. If he's fouled after the ball starts rising/throwing motion then I have to see everything and decide if he was shooting or was dumping at time of the foul. If your 7 footer does this fast enough he can make it similar to a conventional layup. Shooting or passing..need to see and make a decision.

You can say the player "in one continuous motion"...did XYZ but that doesnt mean that XY and Z are all a part of the act of shooting. Your play A is closer to being in the act and may even be depending on what it looks like but it isn't the same play as a player on the way down from a jump stop. They are not similar plays.

BNR:

We are still discussing it because far too many officials are under the mistaken impression that W4 was not fouled in the act of shooting.

MTD, Sr.

The Article
 

Mark, Thanks for the article from Referee Magazine. I read it and now can definitely say "before the shoot"

The contact occurred during the gathering of the ball to do a jump stop.

There was no contact when the player started an upward habitual motion to shoot.

I do not know about the rest of you, but, I can not read a players mind when doing a jump stop as to what they are going to do next. I have to wait and see.

In this case, we had contact just as the jump "stop' begin" and a foul was called. The jump stop was completed after the foul was called.

Then the player throw up a shoot after the after the foul had already taken place.

"before the shoot". I like that phrasing. Thanks for the article!

I feel like I award shooting fouls far more than most officials, but this is not a shooting foul. If it is your games must be lasting 2 1/2 hours with all the free throws you're shooting.

Mark,

Your plays are like Kareem dribbling, back in in opponent. When he ends dribble he gives a head and shoulder fake to the right. leans that way. his left foot would come up off ground at times or it would simply slide to right a bit. He then would pick it up and go back left quick and sky hook.

If he is fouled after ending the dribble and during the head and shoulder fake right.(left foot in air) that is not a shooting foul. He hasn't started a shot yet. If he starts back left and then is fouled we have something to talk about.

Kevin McHale had great footwork. Reverse pivot, step through etc. He did all that after ending a dribble at times….but I'm not giving him two in a high school or college game after he ends the dribble and while he is doing his reverse pivot. He just hasn't started shooting yet.

A jump stop is not the beginning of a shooting motion. It's the beginning of a player standing on 2 feet holding the ball. I had a game Tuesday night where every time the guard executed a jump stop he passed the ball. 100% of the time. He would penetrate, jump stop, then kick out to a jump shooter.

Jump stop does not equal shot.

So because the foul happens in mid jump stop she does not get continuation. If she has landed the jump stop and could as she is beginning her shooting motion I would be ok with it.

Can step be part of a shooting motion sure. That doesn't mean it is.

So every time someone gets bumped in stride and then lifts the ball to fire it once they hear the whistle they aren't getting continuation either. I have to believe the movement is part of their shooting motion, them shooting or not shooting it at the end (as we've debated numerous times) has nothing to do with whether they were in the act of shooting when fouled.

Well, because w4 ended up shooting everything after ending dribble counts. He's swimming in Lake Michigan in January...:

What the players do in all of your plays after the foul doesn't matter. It's what they are doing when they are fouled that matters.

In the video, the player was not shooting (or preparing to shoot, or whatever the specific rule wording is.)

Guys I had a foul call yesterday where the kid just held a pelican pose on his pivot foot for like 10 minutes. After 5 seconds I went to get the ball and he told me about this post that he read on some officiating forum that he still has the right to continuous motion and cited some guy named Mark. I was convinced so we all sat back and waited.

After the 10 minutes he passed to a teammate who was sitting on the floor because we were all tired. So we gave him 2 shots and carried on. Great times.

And it may be apropos to nothing, but the "let's do anything we can to help the offense" NBA specifically has a rule that says a player fouled on a jump stop is NOT in the act of shooting.

That is a proper ending point. Moderators plz put lock on it...

Nah, I'm enjoying this way too much. It's like watching someone polish a turd.

Pelican ?
 

Did you mean to say "Flamingo"?

https://tse2.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.b...=0&w=300&h=300

Common mistake. Just ask Tony Montana.

You mean Joe Montana?
Or Tony Danza?

Joe Danza

Play A: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed center is set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 receives a pass from A2, and then in one continuous motion: he picks up his left foot, jumps off his right foot (to his left), lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot, and while airborne either: 1) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or 2) releases the ball for a hook shot that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 after he has started to step with his left foot but before but before he releases the ball for his: (1) pass to A3, or (2) hook shot. What it your Ruling?


Play B: Team A has the ball in its FC. A1, Team A's 7'-00" right handed center is dribbling the ball while set up in the low post with his back to the basket. A1 stops his dribble and then in one continuous motion: he picks up his left foot, jumps off his right foot (to his left), lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot, and while airborne either: 1) releases the ball on a pass to A3, or 2) releases the ball for a hook shot that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after he has started to step with his left foot but before he releases the ball for his: (1) pass to A3, or (2) hook shot. What it your Ruling?


Play C: A1 catches a pass from A2 while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball: 1) on a pass to A3, or 2) a layup that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after she has caught A2's pass and but before she releases the ball for her: (1) pass to A3, or (2) layup. What it your Ruling?


Play D: A1 is dribbling the ball and ends her dribble while both of her feet are in the air. She then, in one continuous motion, lands on her right foot, then jumps off her right foot, then lands on her left foot, and then jumps off of her left foot, after which she releases the ball for her: 1) on a pass to A3, or 2) a layup that goes through the basket. A1 is fouled by B1 anytime after she has ended her dribble but before she releases the ball for her: (1) pass to A3, or (2) layup. What it your Ruling?




Bob:

So, you are telling me that the fouls committed in Plays A2, B2, C2 and D2 above are not fouls committed in the act of shooting?

MTD, Sr.

http://davidmarkbrownwrites.com/wp-c...le-300x235.jpg

Hey guys he's over here.

I'm saying you don't have enough information in your plays to answer. For example, play 1 could be "The player steps with his foot and looks to pass the ball to A3. After getting fouled, he throws up a hook shot." that still fits your description and would NOT be a shooting foul.

I mean, it's only one of the most famous movies ever...