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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:39pm
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Fight

Wasn't in the game, but happened close to home. Tell me how you would penalize and resume play. A fellow official and I have been in the book, discussed and can't nail it down.

5o seconds left: A1 is intentionally fouled by B1. After the foul, 4 members from team A come out onto the floor, 2 members of team B come off the bench, and 1 of those from team B participates in the fight.

How do you proceed?

We are confused about a couple things. First of all, does team B head coach receive two technical fouls? One for the fighting, one for the other coming off the bench?

Who gets free throws and how many? Team A had more members off the bench, but team B had a member fight. So do they cancel out? If so, how could one coach get two indirect Ts (if that's correct), the other only get one, but you have no free throws?

Anyway, if anyone knows for sure feel free to help us out.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 12:52pm
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A1 will get his two shots and A will get the ball at the spot nearest the foul by B1.

A would get 2 fts for the B member fighting, B would get two for having more players leave the bench. I'm canceling the FTs out and just going with A1's.

A's coach gets one indirect T. B's coach gets 2.

My question, were the bench players the only ones fighting?
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:20pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
A1 will get his two shots and A will get the ball at the spot nearest the foul by B1.

A would get 2 fts for the B member fighting, B would get two for having more players leave the bench. I'm canceling the FTs out and just going with A1's.

A's coach gets one indirect T. B's coach gets 2.

My question, were the bench players the only ones fighting?
This is exactly how I'm handling it.

I'm convinced that many officials spend little time on fight administration and hope that it never happens to them.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:23pm
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Bench member on court, When is thst not a disqualification?
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:25pm
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Originally Posted by kelvinsmerli View Post
Bench member on court, When is thst not a disqualification?
Everyone leaving the bench gets a flagrant technical whether they participate or not. That's a given. We're talking about administration afterwards, though.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
A1 will get his two shots and A will get the ball at the spot nearest the foul by B1.

A would get 2 fts for the B member fighting, B would get two for having more players leave the bench. I'm canceling the FTs out and just going with A1's.

A's coach gets one indirect T. B's coach gets 2.

My question, were the bench players the only ones fighting?
Yes just one bench player from B. He went after A player who was intentionally fouled.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:45pm
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Forgot to add, but I knew these cancelled out anyway; A1 (who was intentionally fouled) and B1 (who committed the intentional foul) received double technicals after intentional foul. This caused the players to clear bench.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 01:52pm
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Originally Posted by Shooter14 View Post
Forgot to add, but I knew these cancelled out anyway; A1 (who was intentionally fouled) and B1 (who committed the intentional foul) received double technicals after intentional foul. This caused the players to clear bench.
Ok, so then we have order of occurrence.

IPF FTs first shot by A1's substitute.

Then four TFTs for Team B (because Team A had two extra team members involved) followed by ball at division line.

One indirect to Coach A (for any number of players leaving the bench who do not participate) and two for Coach B (one for the same reason as above plus one for each fight participant, which in this case was one). So both coaches sit but can stay....for now.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:09pm
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Why does A1 have a substitute? He just got one technical foul. He wasn't ejected.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:12pm
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You had;

B1 intentionally foul A1

A1 and B1 chest up-double T's. (no ejection, just unsporting)

4 players off A bench come on the floor, 2 players off B bench come on the floor, one of those 2 B bench members participates.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:17pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
A1 will get his two shots and A will get the ball at the spot nearest the foul by B1.

A would get 2 fts for the B member fighting, B would get two for having more players leave the bench. I'm canceling the FTs out and just going with A1's.

A's coach gets one indirect T. B's coach gets 2.

My question, were the bench players the only ones fighting?
I THINK, that the number of players leaving the bench decides if FTs are shot even if one of the players leaving the bench also participated in the fight. There is a case play in Rule 10 where A6,A7 and B6 and B7 leave the bench. B7 is only one who participates in the fight. play says because the number of players leaving bench is equal no FTs. Coach A gets indirect for his players leaving bench and Coach B gets two indirects, one for players leaving the bench and one for the player leaving and fighting. So it looks like there will be no FTs if the number leaving bench is same. coach just gets more indirects. This follows the wording at the end of rule 10. "if the number leaving the bench is equal/unequal…"

In shooters play from the original post---A will shoot the 2 FTS for the intentional foul. B will then get 2 FTS for team A having more players leave bench. Team B will take the ball out at division line opposite table. Coach of team A will get one indirect for his kids leaving bench. Coach of B gets two indirects. One for player leaving bench and not fighting and one on other for fighting. Again I THINK this is right…. it is confusing,,,
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:24pm
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
it is confusing,,,
Yes it is, we talked about it for about 30 minutes and couldn't figure out exactly what the right thing to do would be. What makes it confusing is one team violates worse by having more off the bench, but the other violates worse by having a player participate in a fight.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 02:30pm
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Originally Posted by Shooter14 View Post
Yes it is, we talked about it for about 30 minutes and couldn't figure out exactly what the right thing to do would be. What makes it confusing is one team violates worse by having more off the bench, but the other violates worse by having a player participate in a fight.
Yes. the team with more off the bench gives up two FTs. the team with less players leaving bench, but some fighting penalizes the coach more. that's how i read it.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 03:31pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
This is exactly how I'm handling it.

I'm convinced that many officials spend little time on fight administration and hope that it never happens to them.
Once they have one (or 2), they learn real quickly what they did wrong. I thought I had it down, but I still screwed it up.
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Old Thu Jan 19, 2017, 03:36pm
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Originally Posted by Shooter14 View Post
Yes it is, we talked about it for about 30 minutes and couldn't figure out exactly what the right thing to do would be. What makes it confusing is one team violates worse by having more off the bench, but the other violates worse by having a player participate in a fight.
The only real decision is whether or not you shoot free throws for the fight Ts. I think I'd err on not shooting them, because that's the direction I was given many years ago when I had a fight. Try to simplify as much as possible so you aren't walking back and forth shooting free throws when you should get the game moving ASAP.

If you shoot, I'd say your final FTs should be for the player who actually came off the bench to shoot since that seems to have been the last event.

And who in the hell did that bench player fight? That kid deserves extra credit for not fighting back.
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