Legal Guarding Position

[Zoochy]

Play: A1 begins a drive to the basket. B2 steps into A1's path, has two feet on the court while facing A1, and just before A1 reaches B2, B2 starts to fall backward. As B2 is falling backward but has not yet fallen all the way to the court, A1 dribbles through B2's torso, which knocks B2 the rest of the way to the court. Since B2 was not completely upright when the contact occurred, who shall be assessed with the foul?
NFHS, NCAAM and NCAAW rulings.

[ODog]

Originally Posted by Zoochy

Play: A1 begins a drive to the basket. B2 steps into A1's path, has two feet on the court while facing A1, and just before A1 reaches B2, B2 starts to fall backward. As B2 is falling backward but has not yet fallen all the way to the court, A1 dribbles through B2's torso, which knocks B2 the rest of the way to the court. Since B2 was not completely upright when the contact occurred, who shall be assessed with the foul?
NFHS, NCAAM and NCAAW rulings.

This is HTBT, but still sounds like PC on A1. If you're in LGP and get trucked, you got trucked, whether you fell (even partially on your own) or not.

[just another ref]

A player is never penalized for falling away from approaching contact. If B1 is stationary and leans away from contact before being run over by A1, the foul is on A1, whether LGP was ever established or not.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is never penalized for falling away from approaching contact. If B1 is stationary and leans away from contact before being run over by A1, the foul is on A1, whether LGP was ever established or not.

LGP is still part of the equation. Otherwise, I could step in and fall backwards.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Rich

LGP is still part of the equation. Otherwise, I could step in and fall backwards.

But if you do the stepping in is the illegal part, not the falling backward.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player is never penalized for falling away from approaching contact. If B1 is stationary and leans away from contact before being run over by A1, the foul is on A1, whether LGP was ever established or not.

Correction...

A player is should not penalized for falling away from approaching contact.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Correction...

A player is should not penalized for falling away from approaching contact.

Touche' The bottom line is that falling away should not make what you're doing any worse. If you were legal, you're still legal, and if not......

The only thing negative that may happen is a player who does have LGP may reduce/eliminate contact that would have occurred, turning a PC foul into a no call.

[Rufus]

Assuming LGP and the defender is falling away, who's responsible for the contact? If anything the offensive player not only initiates it but does so at a speed faster than if the defender wasn't falling back (i.e., has to cover distance to defender plus distance/speed defender is falling away).

[BigT]

I have two questions.

If the falling back defender completes his avoidance and is now on the ground and the offensive player is going to wreck his knee stepping on him or steps on him is it a block?

When is the defense too late to take a charge? After he picks up his dribble or when it is too late for him to reasonably avoid the defender who has set up LGP?

[Rich]

This is the usual thread on this topic -- one that will not change how anyone calls these plays.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by BigT

When is the defense too late to take a charge? After he picks up his dribble or when it is too late for him to reasonably avoid the defender who has set up LGP?

Defense is too late to take a charge if they cannot meet guidelines for establishing LGP.

Dribbler is not entitled to time and space so in theory they defense could land on two feet with their chest millimeters from the driving player (assuming they landed in their own space and not the into the offensive players cylinder) get hit and have it be PC.

The shooter is a little different depending on your rule set and interps. basically LGP must be established before a certain point on an air born shooter generally either before they leave the floor or before their upward motion starts depending on your rule set. Players cannot move to maintain LGP the same way once the player is airborne.

[BillyMac]

After the initial legal guarding position is obtained:
a. The guard may have one or both feet on the playing court or be airborne,
provided he/she has inbound status.
b. The guard is not required to continue facing the opponent.
c. The guard may move laterally or obliquely to maintain position, provided it
is not toward the opponent when contact occurs.
d. The guard may raise hands or jump within his/her own vertical plane.
e. The guard may turn or duck to absorb the shock of imminent contact.

[BigCat]

Rich is right. You will get different answers. Here's what I do..,If the offensive player has such a head of steam that he's going to run defense over regardless then I will call charge. The plays that would have been nothing if he stays up I will have nothing or if it causes people to trip I will call a blocking foul.

There are things in rules I question based on how game is played and coached. As a coach and player, if I or my kid doesn't stay in for contact, falls early, then I don't expect a charge call. I don't know a single coach who will say he's entitled to fall early. That's something a rule maker came up with. That's my opinion. As the coach of the defense I'll sure take it but I don't expect it. I'm not sure who comes up with some of these rules.

And moving backward is different than falling early. Moving backward entire body goes back.

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by BigCat

Rich is right. You will get different answers. Here's what I do..,If the offensive player has such a head of steam that he's going to run defense over regardless then I will call charge. The plays that would have been nothing if he stays up I will have nothing or if it causes people to trip I will call a blocking foul.

There are things in rules I question based on how game is played and coached. As a coach and player, if I or my kid doesn't stay in for contact, falls early, then I don't expect a charge call. I don't know a single coach who will say he's entitled to fall early. That's something a rule maker came up with. That's my opinion. As the coach of the defense I'll sure take it but I don't expect it. I'm not sure who comes up with some of these rules.

And moving backward is different than falling early. Moving backward entire body goes back.

Unless you have an area where officials that wont call a charge if a kid was set and the ball handler started from the division line, any coach that teaches players to take a charge wants that call.

Natural reaction of a person about to take a hit is to either turn away or start to fall, it reduces force of contact. That's why the rule is there.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by SNIPERBBB

Unless you have an area where officials that wont call a charge if a kid was set and the ball handler started from the division line, any coach that teaches players to take a charge wants that call.

Natural reaction of a person about to take a hit is to either turn away or start to fall, it reduces force of contact. That's why the rule is there.

Sorry, I just don't agree. I do not know one coach on the planet who coaches it's ok to fall early. I can live with turning away. Falling early is an entirely different animal. And I promise you it is not safer. When player takes hit he bounces away. When he falls early it's a guarantee the offense will fall on top of him. Chances good he Bounce his head off floor. Been there done that....which may very well explain my posts....