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[BigCat]

In the inbox: Question to me...two man game. Defense has committed 6 fouls. A1 on defense fouls B1. At the same time, according to OP, A2 fouls B2. They declare they happened at same time. Let's say in 1. No shot attempt involved. In 2. A try by B3 is in flight. What's rule? What should they have done???

I can't make this stuff up....

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Simultaneous foul, no free throws, POI

A's ball in 1

AP arrow in 2

Read it once more...I had to also...They called fouls on two separate defensive players fouling different offensive players and said they happened at the same time.

[Nevadaref]

No try involved, two separate fouls by the same team are whistled = by rule the ball becomes dead when a foul occurs and any contact afterward which isn't intentional or flagrant is ignored. The officials need to decide which foul happened first and only penalize that one. The other one gets ignored by rule. Award 1-1 to the fouled player and continue as normal.

With a try in flight, two off-ball fouls by the same team are whistled. = now both need to be penalized as the ball does not become dead until the try ends, thus both are live ball personal fouls and both fouled players are entitled to 1-1.
The try counts if successful and then the officials will award 1-1 to one player with the lane cleared, followed by 1-1 to the other fouled player with the lane spaces occupied. The game will continue as normal from the second player's FT attempts.
Which player shoots FTs first? The officials have to make that decision and it should be based upon which foul they believe occurred first. If they truly can't tell, then they just have to pick one.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No try involved, two separate fouls by the same team are whistled = by rule the ball becomes dead when a foul occurs and any contact afterward which isn't intentional or flagrant is ignored. The officials need to decide which foul happened first and only penalize that one. The other one gets ignored by rule. Award 1-1 to the fouled player and continue as normal.

With a try in flight, two off-ball fouls by the same team are whistled. = now both need to be penalized as the ball does not become dead until the try ends, thus both are live ball personal fouls and both fouled players are entitled to 1-1.
The try counts if successful and then the officials will award 1-1 to one player with the lane cleared, followed by 1-1 to the other fouled player with the lane spaces occupied. The game will continue as normal from the second player's FT attempts.
Which player shoots FTs first? The officials have to make that decision and it should be based upon which foul they believe occurred first. If they truly can't tell, then they just have to pick one.

My uncertainty is over your first paragraph. We know double foul involves opposite players fouling each other, same time. Simultaneous fouls involves fouls by both teams at same but against different players. Rules dont really have a definition for two fouls committed by same team against different opponents.

If we can have simultaneous fouls, each team commits foul atcsame time against different opponents, why can't there be two fouls committed by same team at same time against separate players? Why do they have to choose which came first in para 1.? (I agree completely and totally they SHOULD declare one happened before the other) But does the rule require it? We know we have the rule saying officials have to decide if foul or violation occurred first...:

I suppose the answer is that the rules don't cover or define two players from same team fouling two different players from other team. Therefore they must choose.

[VaTerp]

It's late and I'm going to sleep but this is covered in the rules....

False multiple.

Make the best guess as to what happened first and go with that.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by VaTerp

It's late and I'm going to sleep but this is covered in the rules....

False multiple.

Make the best guess as to what happened first and go with that.

False multiple fits the situation with a try involved. I gave the administration above.
False multiple is also the closest rule book definition for the situation without a try for goal involved, but because one contact situation is not going to be a foul by rule (4-19-1 Note), it doesn't actually fit. We merely have a single personal foul and some incidental contact during a dead ball.

To answer BigCat's question, the NFHS rules do not permit simultaneous fouls by the same team against two or more opponents.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

False multiple fits the situation with a try involved. I gave the administration above.
False multiple is also the closest rule book definition for the situation without a try for goal involved, but because one contact situation is not going to be a foul by rule (4-19-1 Note), it doesn't actually fit. We merely have a single personal foul and some incidental contact during a dead ball.

To answer BigCat's question, the NFHS rules do not permit simultaneous fouls by the same team against two or more opponents.

I would not go so far as to say the rule do not permit simultaneous fouls just because it is undefined. IIRC, the rules didn't define simultaneous fouls as we have it today for a long time. I suspect it is more of an oversight than not being permitted.

What you suggest about the ball being dead and the other contact being incidental is true if they don't happen at the same time, but if they happen at the same time (so close no one can tell if one happened before the other), I think both can happen.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What you suggest about the ball being dead and the other contact being incidental is true if they don't happen at the same time, but if they happen at the same time (so close no one can tell if one happened before the other), I think both can happen.

And how would you then administer such?
My position is that there are no rules providing for how to penalize such.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And how would you then administer such?
My position is that there are no rules providing for how to penalize such.

That I don't know. They are, together, the 6th and 7th foul. So which gets the FTs? That is the big question. However, if they were truly at the same time, what rules do you have to identify which to ignore?

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

With a try in flight, two off-ball fouls by the same team are whistled. = now both need to be penalized as the ball does not become dead until the try ends, thus both are live ball personal fouls and both fouled players are entitled to 1-1.
The try counts if successful and then the officials will award 1-1 to one player with the lane cleared, followed by 1-1 to the other fouled player with the lane spaces occupied. The game will continue as normal from the second player's FT attempts.
Which player shoots FTs first? The officials have to make that decision and it should be based upon which foul they believe occurred first. If they truly can't tell, then they just have to pick one.

I think the moral of this story is NEVER say they occurred at the same time. Pick one that happened first. Even on the try in flight, we do know ball remains live, but we are still deciding who shoots without lane spaces filled, and who shoots with them filled. Maybe it isnt big deal for us to pick one. But in the other scenario, if they declare they happened at the same time they too happpened during live ball. So if we pick there, we decide who will shoot and who doesnt. OR, maybe since the happened at same time, neither player gets to shoot. There were six fouls when they both were fouled at same time. Next foul is when bonus begins in this situation. I think id avoid this like the plague.


ONE WILL always happen BEFORE the other...thx

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That I don't know. They are, together, the 6th and 7th foul. So which gets the FTs? That is the big question. However, if they were truly at the same time, what rules do you have to identify which to ignore?

Given that the administration is unknown, I'm going with the theory that you have to pick one.

A quick Rock Paper Scissors should do the trick.

Or let the R decide.

Or let the offensive coach pick.

So many options.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

Given that the administration is unknown, I'm going with the theory that you have to pick one.

A quick Rock Paper Scissors should do the trick.

Or let the R decide.

Or let the offensive coach pick.

So many options.

That is still an unknown that you're trying to resolve.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That is still an unknown that you're trying to resolve.

There's no easy way out of this once-in-a-career play. But to me it's going to be easier to come up with some reason to choose one over the other than to decide who gets free throws if you call them both.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

There's no easy way out of this once-in-a-career play. But to me it's going to be easier to come up with some reason to choose one over the other than to decide who gets free throws if you call them both.

Yes. Hopefully, that once in a career call happened earlier in the week. Never to be made again...by anyone...