Problem Player

[SNIPERBBB]

Originally Posted by Welpe

And since this was not following an intermission or time-out, we do not use the procedure.

RPP is a violation., sans it the play is a T.

[ballgame99]

DOG warning necessary in this case? Or strait to T? May depend on the extent of the player's actions?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by walt

I was an observer at a boy's varsity game last night between two rival schools. One player in particular was an issue for the crew the entire evening and it got me thinking about how to handle such a player and what I would've done had I been part of the crew. Prior to the jump ball while players and officials are getting into position to start, #2 WHITE is walking around and saying stuff like "you're came to our house to get whipped tonight!", "walking out losers tonight!" etc and clapping his hands and bobbing his head. U2 walks over to him and says something to him and #2 smiles and slaps U2 on the butt and gives him a thumbs up. Almost immediately from the start, #2 and #15 BLUE are going at each other pretty hard, fouls called appropriately, but it seems the two players are always saying something to one another. Crew warns them both.

Game progresses and now WHITE finds themselves down 10 in the 3rd quarter and the coach and fans are complaining about foul calls even though both teams are in the bonus. #2 gets fouled and has a 1 and 1 opportunity. The players are lined up and the lead signals 1 and 1. #2 as the Lead is doing this walks out of the semi-circle before the bounce of the ball. The Lead tells him to get back in and #2 decides to look over at the bench and wipe his hands on his jersey and basically ignore the Lead. The Lead again says 1 and 1 and walks up and puts the ball down on the free throw line. #2 steps forward and comes into the semi-circle and the Center calls the violation. The White team coach goes nuts and the Trail turns and tries to explain what happened. At the same time, #2 decides to go ahead and roll the ball toward the bench and waves off the Lead. The coach ends up with a warning and he sits down. The Center tries to say something to #2 but #2 walks away from him. He was not given a T at this point.

4th quarter, #2 drives to he basket and gets in a hard collision with his nemesis, #15 who correctly (IMO) gets called for a block. #2 is a little slow to get up but does and #15 gets up and smiles at #2 and claps his hands and then turns to walk away. As the official is heading to the table (who was the Lead on the free throw), #2 picks up the ball and tosses it, not a hard throw but still tosses it, and it hits #15 in the back. #15 now turns but teammates got a hold of #15 and #2 and keep them away from each other.

The official stops on his way to the table and issues a technical foul to #2 White for the toss of the ball. The coach goes nuts again and ends up getting stuck.

Blue wins the game by 18.

After the game, the crew was pretty upset by how the game ended with the technical and the overall attitude in the gym and with the players. As a crew, they discussed whether they should have given #2 a Flagrant Technical for tossing the ball at #15 and ejected him. Given what a pain #2 had been for them all night, not that #15 was innocent (ended the game with 4 fouls) but #2 was easily worse, I told them I could see possibly going with the Flagrant T at that point but was ok with just the unsporting T.

We've all had problem matchups and players like this. I figured I'd bring it here to see what you all think about how it was handled.

I went ahead and marked all the times I would have called a T before they finally got to it, as well as the one they got (I would not have gone flagrant for that, but he probably wouldn't have lasted that long).

Seems to me that #2 was the problem child and the catalyst. The crew properly warned him before the game, so there's a good chance one of his comments to #15 early in the game would have earned a T if I heard it. If not, his stunt at the FT line would have.

Whether a T would have fixed him is unknown, but a second one would have at least removed the cancer.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

DOG warning necessary in this case? Or strait to T? May depend on the extent of the player's actions?

Absolutely not.

There are four cases where a DOG warning is allowed, none of them happened at any point in the OP.

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by Adam

Absolutely not.

There are four cases where a DOG warning is allowed, none of them happened at any point in the OP.

I apparently need to freshen up on my DOG scenarios. Care to share what those 4 are?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

If he's acting like that and I give him an opportunity to knock it off, and he slaps my ass you can bet he'll start the game with a T. There is no reason for a player to ever touch an official, not to mention him trying to show you up. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because I don't think I'll convince you otherwise and vice versa. There are at least 3 other instances where I would've whacked this kid without a second thought, but that hustle pat for me is not a warning. His warning comes when I tell him to cool it with the crap before the game. It's amazing he's gotten this far thinking he can act like that. Guys who did not TCOB, along with poor coaching would be my reasons he acts like this. This kind of crap gets me fired up. What we permit we promote.

I don't entirely disagree, that's why I said it's all in context and this isn't automatic.

Take for instance a foul you call and the player asks you what he did. You explain and he get it. He says thanks, pats your butt and walks away. Let's assume it's genuine appreciation.

You call the T. Somewhere in the rule you have justification. In reality you just made a connection with a player who appreciated feedback and you had great communication that almost means you have an ally on that team who can "help" you and the crew. In college, its' a win win. Slapping a T here negates all that and I know will get me a call from my assignor and I will expect a, "why the heck did you call the T." The expectation is to communicate (that's a 2 way street).

I've had a 7 footer come up to me and put his hand on my shoulder and ask why I couldn't have let that foul go (we both laughed and he moved along). In your world that's a T. In mine it's a moment to communicate and build a relationship.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I apparently need to freshen up on my DOG scenarios. Care to share what those 4 are?

What do you think are?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ballgame99

I apparently need to freshen up on my DOG scenarios. Care to share what those 4 are?

They're specifically spelled out in the book.
1. Contact with the ball after it goes through the basket that delays the throw in.
2. Contact with a free throw shooter that delays the next shot.
3. Not having the court ready following a timeout.
4. Crossing the throw-in plane.

That's it. That's the list.

You can warn for other things, but the warning is not an official dog warning. Doing that leads to potential problems that I wouldn't want to have to explain.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't entirely disagree, that's why I said it's all in context and this isn't automatic.

Take for instance a foul you call and the player asks you what he did. You explain and he get it. He says thanks, pats your butt and walks away. Let's assume it's genuine appreciation.

You call the T. Somewhere in the rule you have justification. In reality you just made a connection with a player who appreciated feedback and you had great communication that almost means you have an ally on that team who can "help" you and the crew. In college, its' a win win. Slapping a T here negates all that and I know will get me a call from my assignor and I will expect a, "why the heck did you call the T." The expectation is to communicate (that's a 2 way street).

I've had a 7 footer come up to me and put his hand on my shoulder and ask why I couldn't have let that foul go (we both laughed and he moved along). In your world that's a T. In mine it's a moment to communicate and build a relationship.

I misread your post, or the intention anyway. I understand what you're saying, and agree. I think in the OP the kid showed that he was a smart*** before the game started, so in that situation it's a T. A kid genuinely thanking me is not going to be a T. But a player touching me in any way other than genuine appreciation is not getting another chance to do that.

[walt]

The one message I did give the crew was, from my perspective, they did too much talking and warning without ever setting the line and dealing with their problem children. The free throw line situation to me, rolling the ball away especially, would have earned #2 a T. The slap on the butt at the beginning I am not so sure for the reasons Deecee stated. When the official talked to him, he stopped, seemed to acknowledge, and slapped his butt. Inappropriate yes but I find it hard to believe most of us would have done anything other than playing on at that point. Would the radar mark #2? Yep.

As for the free throw situation, I know it is not an ROP situation but I am not sure I wouldn't have done what the Lead did. Tell him again get in and then deal with it. Those who disagree, and again I know the rule, if this just happened in one of your games and you didn't have the previous behavior issues, would you really have just stuck a player for not coming in?

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by walt

Those who disagree, and again I know the rule, if this just happened in one of your games and you didn't have the previous behavior issues, would you really have just stuck a player for not coming in?

Yes, because that's what the rule says to do. There is no basis in the book to resume play like he did.

[ballgame99]

Originally Posted by Adam

They're specifically spelled out in the book.
1. Contact with the ball after it goes through the basket that delays the throw in.
2. Contact with a free throw shooter that delays the next shot.
3. Not having the court ready following a timeout.
4. Crossing the throw-in plane.

That's it. That's the list.

You can warn for other things, but the warning is not an official dog warning. Doing that leads to potential problems that I wouldn't want to have to explain.

Thanks for the info. I knew 1, 3, and 4.

[SNIPERBBB]

If the player is out of the semi absent-minded, you'd be more lenient. If the player is being obstinate, I've no problem with a T.

[walt]

Case Book 8.1.1 A1 is awarded two free throws. After the players have had sufficient opportunity and time to take their positions for the first throw, the administering official bounces the ball to the free thrower. Did the official follow proper procedure?

Ruling:

Yes. On free throws the word disposal is interpreted to mean that the official shall bounce the ball to the free thrower, but if the free thrower refuses to accept it, the official may place the ball on the floor at the free throw line and begin his count. This procedure constitutes putting the ball at the free thrower's disposal.

9.1.3 The official administering a free throw awarded to A1 places the ball at his/her disposal. A1, who is inside the free throw semi-circle leaves the semi-circle to confer with a teammate.

Ruling: Violation. After the ball has been placed at the disposal of the free thrower, he/she is not permitted to leave OR enter the free throw semi-circle without violating until restrictions have ended.

Neither of these case plays are ROP plays.

In this case the player is outside and won't come in. The official placed it at his disposal and the violation was called as soon as he entered. Where does it say this is automatic T?

It is not in the Technical foul chart or in any rule or play I can find.

In this particular game, I could see whacking #2 for an unsporting action/behavior. I get that. But, forget this game. For those that would whack a player right away for not coming in, what rule are you using to support that?

[deecee]

Originally Posted by walt

As for the free throw situation, I know it is not an ROP situation but I am not sure I wouldn't have done what the Lead did. Tell him again get in and then deal with it. Those who disagree, and again I know the rule, if this just happened in one of your games and you didn't have the previous behavior issues, would you really have just stuck a player for not coming in?

Me personally, no. I would go to the kid and say, "I'm asking you do to something simple. If you don't listen it's a T. It's your choice. When I turn back around I'd recommend you be at the line." Then I walk back to the lead position. I guarantee you when I turn around he's at the line.