Problem Player

[walt]

I was an observer at a boy's varsity game last night between two rival schools. One player in particular was an issue for the crew the entire evening and it got me thinking about how to handle such a player and what I would've done had I been part of the crew. Prior to the jump ball while players and officials are getting into position to start, #2 WHITE is walking around and saying stuff like "you're came to our house to get whipped tonight!", "walking out losers tonight!" etc and clapping his hands and bobbing his head. U2 walks over to him and says something to him and #2 smiles and slaps U2 on the butt and gives him a thumbs up. Almost immediately from the start, #2 and #15 BLUE are going at each other pretty hard, fouls called appropriately, but it seems the two players are always saying something to one another. Crew warns them both.

Game progresses and now WHITE finds themselves down 10 in the 3rd quarter and the coach and fans are complaining about foul calls even though both teams are in the bonus. #2 gets fouled and has a 1 and 1 opportunity. The players are lined up and the lead signals 1 and 1. #2 as the Lead is doing this walks out of the semi-circle before the bounce of the ball. The Lead tells him to get back in and #2 decides to look over at the bench and wipe his hands on his jersey and basically ignore the Lead. The Lead again says 1 and 1 and walks up and puts the ball down on the free throw line. #2 steps forward and comes into the semi-circle and the Center calls the violation. The White team coach goes nuts and the Trail turns and tries to explain what happened. At the same time, #2 decides to go ahead and roll the ball toward the bench and waves off the Lead. The coach ends up with a warning and he sits down. The Center tries to say something to #2 but #2 walks away from him. He was not given a T at this point.

4th quarter, #2 drives to he basket and gets in a hard collision with his nemesis, #15 who correctly (IMO) gets called for a block. #2 is a little slow to get up but does and #15 gets up and smiles at #2 and claps his hands and then turns to walk away. As the official is heading to the table (who was the Lead on the free throw), #2 picks up the ball and tosses it, not a hard throw but still tosses it, and it hits #15 in the back. #15 now turns but teammates got a hold of #15 and #2 and keep them away from each other.

The official stops on his way to the table and issues a technical foul to #2 White for the toss of the ball. The coach goes nuts again and ends up getting stuck.

Blue wins the game by 18.

After the game, the crew was pretty upset by how the game ended with the technical and the overall attitude in the gym and with the players. As a crew, they discussed whether they should have given #2 a Flagrant Technical for tossing the ball at #15 and ejected him. Given what a pain #2 had been for them all night, not that #15 was innocent (ended the game with 4 fouls) but #2 was easily worse, I told them I could see possibly going with the Flagrant T at that point but was ok with just the unsporting T.

We've all had problem matchups and players like this. I figured I'd bring it here to see what you all think about how it was handled.

[UNIgiantslayers]

If a kid ever slapped me on the butt, I'd whack and possibly go flagrant depending on what my crew thought and remove him before he even gets a chance to do anything else stupid.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

If a kid ever slapped me on the butt, I'd whack and possibly go flagrant depending on what my crew thought and remove him before he even gets a chance to do anything else stupid.

I wouldn't. I've had chats with players where I explain what they did wrong and they were receptive. It would all depend on context, but this act in and of itself is not a punishable offense to me. In hindsight you can always say, "well #2 was a PITA the rest of the way." But at that moment you don't know that.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by deecee

I wouldn't. I've had chats with players where I explain what they did wrong and they were receptive. It would all depend on context, but this act in and of itself is not a punishable offense to me. In hindsight you can always say, "well #2 was a PITA the rest of the way." But at that moment you don't know that.

If he's acting like that and I give him an opportunity to knock it off, and he slaps my ass you can bet he'll start the game with a T. There is no reason for a player to ever touch an official, not to mention him trying to show you up. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because I don't think I'll convince you otherwise and vice versa. There are at least 3 other instances where I would've whacked this kid without a second thought, but that hustle pat for me is not a warning. His warning comes when I tell him to cool it with the crap before the game. It's amazing he's gotten this far thinking he can act like that. Guys who did not TCOB, along with poor coaching would be my reasons he acts like this. This kind of crap gets me fired up. What we permit we promote.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

If he's acting like that and I give him an opportunity to knock it off, and he slaps my ass you can bet he'll start the game with a T. There is no reason for a player to ever touch an official, not to mention him trying to show you up. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because I don't think I'll convince you otherwise and vice versa. There are at least 3 other instances where I would've whacked this kid without a second thought, but that hustle pat for me is not a warning. His warning comes when I tell him to cool it with the crap before the game. It's amazing he's gotten this far thinking he can act like that. Guys who did not TCOB, along with poor coaching would be my reasons he acts like this. This kind of crap gets me fired up. What we permit we promote.

I don't entirely disagree, that's why I said it's all in context and this isn't automatic.

Take for instance a foul you call and the player asks you what he did. You explain and he get it. He says thanks, pats your butt and walks away. Let's assume it's genuine appreciation.

You call the T. Somewhere in the rule you have justification. In reality you just made a connection with a player who appreciated feedback and you had great communication that almost means you have an ally on that team who can "help" you and the crew. In college, its' a win win. Slapping a T here negates all that and I know will get me a call from my assignor and I will expect a, "why the heck did you call the T." The expectation is to communicate (that's a 2 way street).

I've had a 7 footer come up to me and put his hand on my shoulder and ask why I couldn't have let that foul go (we both laughed and he moved along). In your world that's a T. In mine it's a moment to communicate and build a relationship.

[UNIgiantslayers]

Originally Posted by deecee

I don't entirely disagree, that's why I said it's all in context and this isn't automatic.

Take for instance a foul you call and the player asks you what he did. You explain and he get it. He says thanks, pats your butt and walks away. Let's assume it's genuine appreciation.

You call the T. Somewhere in the rule you have justification. In reality you just made a connection with a player who appreciated feedback and you had great communication that almost means you have an ally on that team who can "help" you and the crew. In college, its' a win win. Slapping a T here negates all that and I know will get me a call from my assignor and I will expect a, "why the heck did you call the T." The expectation is to communicate (that's a 2 way street).

I've had a 7 footer come up to me and put his hand on my shoulder and ask why I couldn't have let that foul go (we both laughed and he moved along). In your world that's a T. In mine it's a moment to communicate and build a relationship.

I misread your post, or the intention anyway. I understand what you're saying, and agree. I think in the OP the kid showed that he was a smart*** before the game started, so in that situation it's a T. A kid genuinely thanking me is not going to be a T. But a player touching me in any way other than genuine appreciation is not getting another chance to do that.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by UNIgiantslayers

If he's acting like that and I give him an opportunity to knock it off, and he slaps my ass you can bet he'll start the game with a T. There is no reason for a player to ever touch an official, not to mention him trying to show you up. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, because I don't think I'll convince you otherwise and vice versa. There are at least 3 other instances where I would've whacked this kid without a second thought, but that hustle pat for me is not a warning. His warning comes when I tell him to cool it with the crap before the game. It's amazing he's gotten this far thinking he can act like that. Guys who did not TCOB, along with poor coaching would be my reasons he acts like this. This kind of crap gets me fired up. What we permit we promote.

Not a chance I give a kid a T for a pat on the butt. I would start the game exactly as this crew did, but recognize immediately that #2 is nothing more than a GFU. The rest of the stuff deserved a quicker reaction and quicker technical fouls.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

I wouldn't. I've had chats with players where I explain what they did wrong and they were receptive. It would all depend on context, but this act in and of itself is not a punishable offense to me. In hindsight you can always say, "well #2 was a PITA the rest of the way." But at that moment you don't know that.

Agree. The butt slap would not draw a T from me unless there were words with it telling me it wasn't jovial in nature.

[Adam]

#2 should have received a T as soon as he refused to come back to the line. This isn't an RPP situation (that I recall).

I'll read the rest now.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by walt

I was an observer at a boy's varsity game last night between two rival schools. One player in particular was an issue for the crew the entire evening and it got me thinking about how to handle such a player and what I would've done had I been part of the crew. Prior to the jump ball while players and officials are getting into position to start, #2 WHITE is walking around and saying stuff like "you're came to our house to get whipped tonight!", "walking out losers tonight!" etc and clapping his hands and bobbing his head. U2 walks over to him and says something to him and #2 smiles and slaps U2 on the butt and gives him a thumbs up. Almost immediately from the start, #2 and #15 BLUE are going at each other pretty hard, fouls called appropriately, but it seems the two players are always saying something to one another. Crew warns them both.

Game progresses and now WHITE finds themselves down 10 in the 3rd quarter and the coach and fans are complaining about foul calls even though both teams are in the bonus. #2 gets fouled and has a 1 and 1 opportunity. The players are lined up and the lead signals 1 and 1. #2 as the Lead is doing this walks out of the semi-circle before the bounce of the ball. The Lead tells him to get back in and #2 decides to look over at the bench and wipe his hands on his jersey and basically ignore the Lead. The Lead again says 1 and 1 and walks up and puts the ball down on the free throw line. #2 steps forward and comes into the semi-circle and the Center calls the violation. The White team coach goes nuts and the Trail turns and tries to explain what happened. At the same time, #2 decides to go ahead and roll the ball toward the bench and waves off the Lead. The coach ends up with a warning and he sits down. The Center tries to say something to #2 but #2 walks away from him. He was not given a T at this point.

4th quarter, #2 drives to he basket and gets in a hard collision with his nemesis, #15 who correctly (IMO) gets called for a block. #2 is a little slow to get up but does and #15 gets up and smiles at #2 and claps his hands and then turns to walk away. As the official is heading to the table (who was the Lead on the free throw), #2 picks up the ball and tosses it, not a hard throw but still tosses it, and it hits #15 in the back. #15 now turns but teammates got a hold of #15 and #2 and keep them away from each other.

The official stops on his way to the table and issues a technical foul to #2 White for the toss of the ball. The coach goes nuts again and ends up getting stuck.

Blue wins the game by 18.

After the game, the crew was pretty upset by how the game ended with the technical and the overall attitude in the gym and with the players. As a crew, they discussed whether they should have given #2 a Flagrant Technical for tossing the ball at #15 and ejected him. Given what a pain #2 had been for them all night, not that #15 was innocent (ended the game with 4 fouls) but #2 was easily worse, I told them I could see possibly going with the Flagrant T at that point but was ok with just the unsporting T.

We've all had problem matchups and players like this. I figured I'd bring it here to see what you all think about how it was handled.

A flagrant T there doesn't solve for the crew's failure to adequately address the problem when they should have.

You say that they "talked to #2" multiple times. After you identify him (correctly) as a problem, take care of business at the first opportunity. That will clean up the rest of the game so you don't have it explode in the 4th quarter.

[BryanV21]

Originally Posted by walt

I was an observer at a boy's varsity game last night between two rival schools. One player in particular was an issue for the crew the entire evening and it got me thinking about how to handle such a player and what I would've done had I been part of the crew. Prior to the jump ball while players and officials are getting into position to start, #2 WHITE is walking around and saying stuff like "you're came to our house to get whipped tonight!", "walking out losers tonight!" etc and clapping his hands and bobbing his head. U2 walks over to him and says something to him and #2 smiles and slaps U2 on the butt and gives him a thumbs up.

Why was this not a technical foul?

Almost immediately from the start, #2 and #15 BLUE are going at each other pretty hard, fouls called appropriately, but it seems the two players are always saying something to one another. Crew warns them both.

Sounds like there were either too many warnings, or the one warning came too late. They should have been warned the first time, and punished the second.

Game progresses and now WHITE finds themselves down 10 in the 3rd quarter and the coach and fans are complaining about foul calls even though both teams are in the bonus. #2 gets fouled and has a 1 and 1 opportunity. The players are lined up and the lead signals 1 and 1. #2 as the Lead is doing this walks out of the semi-circle before the bounce of the ball. The Lead tells him to get back in and #2 decides to look over at the bench and wipe his hands on his jersey and basically ignore the Lead. The Lead again says 1 and 1 and walks up and puts the ball down on the free throw line. #2 steps forward and comes into the semi-circle and the Center calls the violation. The White team coach goes nuts and the Trail turns and tries to explain what happened. At the same time, #2 decides to go ahead and roll the ball toward the bench and waves off the Lead. The coach ends up with a warning and he sits down. The Center tries to say something to #2 but #2 walks away from him. He was not given a T at this point.

Are you freakin' serious?!?!

4th quarter, #2 drives to he basket and gets in a hard collision with his nemesis, #15 who correctly (IMO) gets called for a block. #2 is a little slow to get up but does and #15 gets up and smiles at #2 and claps his hands and then turns to walk away. As the official is heading to the table (who was the Lead on the free throw), #2 picks up the ball and tosses it, not a hard throw but still tosses it, and it hits #15 in the back. #15 now turns but teammates got a hold of #15 and #2 and keep them away from each other.

The official stops on his way to the table and issues a technical foul to #2 White for the toss of the ball. The coach goes nuts again and ends up getting stuck.

Blue wins the game by 18.

After the game, the crew was pretty upset by how the game ended with the technical and the overall attitude in the gym and with the players. As a crew, they discussed whether they should have given #2 a Flagrant Technical for tossing the ball at #15 and ejected him. Given what a pain #2 had been for them all night, not that #15 was innocent (ended the game with 4 fouls) but #2 was easily worse, I told them I could see possibly going with the Flagrant T at that point but was ok with just the unsporting T.

We've all had problem matchups and players like this. I figured I'd bring it here to see what you all think about how it was handled.

My God, they let way too much go. This could have been handled from the beginning. If this crew is upset it should be with themselves for allowing this nonsense to happen.

[bob jenkins]

1) I'm surprised you were able to hear what White#2 said before the game.

2) It wasn't after a TO, so the resumption of play shouldn't have been used.

3) Both players had been warned, so the "rolling of the ball and waving off the lead" deserve a T.

4) Both players had been warned, so #15 deserves a T after the foul in the 4th quarter.

[walt]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) I'm surprised you were able to hear what White#2 said before the game.

2) It wasn't after a TO, so the resumption of play shouldn't have been used.

3) Both players had been warned, so the "rolling of the ball and waving off the lead" deserve a T.

4) Both players had been warned, so #15 deserves a T after the foul in the 4th quarter.

He was jumping around and pretty loud and it was before the toss. As for the free throw situation, it was after a common foul that led to the 1 and 1. The crew lined them up, Lead announced 1 and 1, and #2 backed out. Lead again said 1 and 1 and then put the ball down.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by walt

He was jumping around and pretty loud and it was before the toss. As for the free throw situation, it was after a common foul that led to the 1 and 1. The crew lined them up, Lead announced 1 and 1, and #2 backed out. Lead again said 1 and 1 and then put the ball down.

We know what it's for. The procedure he used is incorrect.

[SNIPERBBB]

ART. 5

A player shall not:

Delay the game by acts such as:

a. Preventing the ball from being made live promptly or from being put in play.

b. Failing when in possession, to immediately pass the ball to the nearer official when a whistle sounds.

c. The free thrower fails to be in the free-throw semicircle when the official is ready to administer the free throw unless the resumption-of-play procedure is in effect following a time-out or intermission.

d. Repeated violations of the throw-in, as in 9-2-10.

ART. 6