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If the ball is live, sure. But if the ball is dead because the first foul has already been called, I'm not sure it's automatic. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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Elbow to head ... Live or dead has to be called...if you don't... There are upset coaches, retaliation, etc.
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Obviously, if the contact is deemed to be either intentional or flagrant, address it accordingly. My point is that I don't think the situation is absolute. If you would only call a player control foul if the ball were live, I wouldn't have a problem not calling a technical foul. I understand I may be in the minority, and I understand that the "safe" thing to do would be to call the technical, but I'd better see clear intent if I'm hitting a kid with a dead ball contact technical. |
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in OS I trust |
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Common / Intentional / Flagrant. Whether Personal or Technical. (Recognizing that "common Technical" is not really a defined term -- but it should be. ![]() If the ball is live, it's a flagrant personal. If the ball is dead, it's a flagrant Technical. |
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you are right, i rushed through the response.
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in OS I trust |
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association |
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I disagree with elbow contact to the head being ignored in this case and so do my local and college assignors. The FED and NCAA have made it clear that contact to the head is not to be ignored, and they have been very clear and succinct with the message.
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in OS I trust |
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Contact Above Shoulders ...
2012-13 NFHS POINTS OF EMPHASIS
2. Contact above the shoulders. With a continued emphasis on reducing concussions and decreasing excessive contact situations the committee determined that more guidance is needed for penalizing contact above the shoulders. a. A player shall not swing his/her arm(s) or elbow(s) even without contacting an opponent. Excessive swinging of the elbows occurs when arms and elbows are swung about while using the shoulders as pivots, and the speed of the extended arms and elbows is in excess of the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on the pivot foot. Currently it is a violation in Rule 9 Section 13 Article. b. Examples of illegal contact above the shoulders and resulting penalties. 1. Contact with a stationary elbow may be incidental or a common foul. 2. An elbow in movement but not excessive should be an intentional foul. 3. A moving elbow that is excessive can be either an intentional foul or flagrant personal foul. 4-19-1-Note: Contact after the ball has become dead is ignored unless it is ruled intentional or flagrant ...
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"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) “I was in prison and you came to visit me.” (Matthew 25:36) Last edited by BillyMac; Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 05:00pm. |
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Before this season, I would most likely have agreed with you. However, in NCAA-M, we are now instructed to determine the position of the forearms (vertical vs. horizontal) of the offensive player when officiating these plays. If the offensive player's forearms are more vertical than horizontal, the foul would be on the defensive player for violating the cylinder of the offensive player. This is a common foul on the defense. I would apply these same rules to dead ball contact as well. If the offensive player's forearms are vertical and contact is made above the defensive player's shoulders, this would be a common foul on the defense. Therefore, it should not automatically be a technical or flagrant technical foul on the offense just because the ball is dead.
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And even before relaxing the interpretations, they (as indicated in the POEs posted by Billy) still allowed for a common foul involving elbows and the head. Several jurisdictions, and I think the NFHS too, clarified of what was meant by "movement" ruling that an elbow not moving relative to the body was just a common foul.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association Last edited by Camron Rust; Thu Dec 15, 2016 at 06:45pm. |
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Again, I'll call it however they want, but I have not seen anything saying that can be considered a common foul. If elbow moving itself, or because body pivots it is still moving. I don't search a lot of things so I'm not saying there isn't something there. I just haven't seen it and wouldn't know where to look. Illinois had slides for its rules meeting saying same thing as POE. They have not issued any other statewide interpretation. I certainly would like the ability to call a common foul when the elbow is moving in a normal way, say on a pass) but I haven't seen anything allowing me to do it. Last edited by BigCat; Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 12:01am. |
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And in our state, they gave the interpretation a while back that I suggested above....moving in a normal play is just a normal play and common. Moving faster than the body (excessive swinging) is an intentional. If it is vicious or targeted, it goes flagrant.
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Owner/Developer of RefTown.com Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association Last edited by Camron Rust; Fri Dec 16, 2016 at 04:17am. |
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