Irrespective of anything the RA restriction does not apply to an defender that is airborne making a play on the ball. The only time the RA is used in a case where you would have called a PC foul however the player did not meet the requirements due to being (1) secondary (2) within the RA plane at the point of contact & (3) NOT airborne.

I know that. I'm not talking about airborne. assume for me that number 4 black initially established LGP in the RA on the ball handler. Assume he gets run over. Now, if you call that an "outnumbered" fast break its a block because he set up initially in the RA. If you say it wasn't outnumbered--"even" then charge because he's primary and can set up anywhere.

Look at Jeff's video clips (id like to know how he does that BTW). The second frame shows two offense and two defense out in front. behind them are another offense and defensive player. still even. behind them, near division line are 2 more offense and only one defense.

If i look at what i would call the point of attack, near the basket--id call this 2 on 2. If i look back a bit, i see 3 on 3. if i look back further to just inside the division line now we have an odd number. Without seeing the ncaa guidelines or videos i wouldn't really be including the guys at the division line as part of the "fast break." They are trailing the play and might be part of some secondary break. Anyway, i need to look at the guidelines and videos. i would like to see one where the ncaa calls it even as opposed to "outnumbered." thx

I do not have a specific example other than if you are not on a break anymore, then all the defenders are defending someone. Again I think this was addressed in the NCAA video on some level, but I would have to find that in my library.

Peace

You are making this more complicated than it is. If he initially obtained LGP within the RA and the contact happened within the RA then it's a block no matter what the situation. The defender is either primary or he isn't, and there are guidelines defining this. You are correct this is a 2on2 break. Even if it were a 3on2 break the players are all INITIALLY secondary. One or both of these 2 defenders CAN become primary, but they have to meet the requirements (pretty much gain LGP outside the RA). On say a 2on2 break both defenders don't have to INITIALLY be secondary. They COULD be. They could also both be primary, or one primary and one secondary.

It's on an uneven break ALL defenders secondary until they become primary.

Well, you are killing me…luckily i have 8 more lives...:cool: I don't agree that if he initially obtained LGP within the RA that is's a block no matter what. If we say this is an even fast break then 4 black can first establish LGP in the RA. If it is "even" numbered, not "outnumbered", he isn't considered secondary. Secondary defenders cannot initially establish position in the RA.

A defender can be considered a primary defender even though he is yet to establish a LGP on the player near him. 4 black is primary if we say this is an even break and he can first establish LGP in the RA. The question i have is what is even and what is outnumbered and where do you look to determine it.

I have 8 more lives left so ive got time to stay after this:) Let me know what I'm screwing up…I realize you may not have 8 more lives so its ok if you've had enough...

Correct point. How to determine an uneven fastbreak. Are there fewer number of defenders between the offensive team and the basket?

That is pretty much my point and guideline. It might be technically a 2 on 2 or 3 on 2 break, but that is not what I see as the rule has been defined. There are only 2 defenders back and most of the Michigan players are right with the ball before a defender is in front of them. I am not that good to try to split hairs here.

Peace

I just need to look at the videos and guidelines. If I'm the lead in this play I'm going to be looking straight across and seeing the 2 on 2 or the 3 on 3. I won't be looking back to the players at the division line. If that's what they want i know I'm going to need the C to help with that…a lot.

I guess i think of the secondary defender and RA stuff as being there to prevent "help like" Block/charge plays. In a 3 on 2 the middle man might pass ball to wing. they don't want either defender then sliding over to take charge in RA. no player got beat in that type of situation but they call him secondary because they don't want him sliding over in the RA. Similar type of play as the regular RA plays. Primary gets beat, somebody slides over/helps. Here if 4 black would set up in the RA it really isn't a "help like" play. There's no sliding over etc. I just wouldn't make the decision if it is outnumbered or not by looking at the division line or just inside of it. I would look closer to the basket and look at the numbers, and then the RA and then do math on number of players and then…..screw it up anyway…. I just need to look at the ncaam stuff. thx

I think the bottom line you are making this too complicated. You want to commingle coaching status to rules status. All RA players can be evaluated by a non-calling official. So if you think it is a outnumbered break and call it accordingly, a partner can come in and tell you otherwise to get the call right.

I just have remembered the stuff talked about in the meetings and remember parts of the video. I am a little busy right now and not my issue, so you will just have to wait unless someone else has some information themselves. Past NCAA videos are on YouTube or might even be on the NCAA Arbiter site, but I thin you are worrying too much about a situation that did not even result in an RA situation in the first place. The player jumped so the RA did not apply here at all.

BTW, I think it was not a foul when I saw the play live and went back and saw more of a foul when I saw the replay and slowed it down. But I see why it was not called either. But I do not think the outnumbered break had anything to do with the call. I just think the official made a ruling and probably considered other plays in the game as well. After all I think that official did an NFL a couple of days before that game. ;)

Peace

Making this more complicated again. All it means for a secondary defender is that they are not primary defender. With that comes certain guideline. IF a defender isn't primary then when and where can they establish LGP. The fact is on most fast breaks you may not have time to count as the lead if it's even or uneven, but you can usually have a faint clue a vast majority of the time. If unsure I would go with uneven make my call and then ask the C real quick if he has extra info and go from there. I would probably pregame this with a hand signal or such that either confirms my call or I need to chat with the C.

It's really not that tough.

No, I'm not making it too complicated. I want to know where it is you look and when to decide even or outnumbered. I know I can get help but I want to know where the cutoff is. I realize this play doesn't involve the RA. I realize Steratore was the official and I understand completely why he didn't have a foul. He's running etc. I think it was a foul on replay.

And, I'm not worrying. I just like to have the answers. Even to questions that may not come up much. And maybe I should understand sooner but I'm going to keep asking til I understand. I accepted your view that I look farther back, even to half court to decide even or outnumbered. I just don't know why we would go back that far and gave my reasons why I Wouldn't do that.

That's just making a statement. As I said earlier, I need to see the guidelines myself. I will find them. I appreciate you putting the plays up.

Well you are if you have several officials that work this level (not necessarily D1) that are telling you that you are making this a little too complicated. Because the rule is not written to be that defined.

And my comment about Steatore was sarcastic. Not really about his ability of an official. I was actually surprised he was on a college game either a day or two after his NFL game.

I understand, but the reality is that I do not think any of us can get the answer you are looking for even if you see the video. Even if I show you what I remember, it might not answer all your questions.

Peace

Most fast breaks we are just assuming that a defender who is back guarding the paint is initially a secondary defender. That is the accepted philosophy.

No one has ever worried about the technical distinction on which you are focusing, at least in any discussion I have had or any game I have officiated.

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He probably had 3 games leading up to the NFL games...
I have done college for a long time and since the RA came in. I realize nobody talks about what is outnumbered v even. I havnt worried about it and i havnt had an "even" situation yet. I guess on this one, if 4 black initially tried to establish LGP in the paint and get run over i would have said it was "even." Id be looking across and see 2 on 2 and maybe the 3 on 3. I would not have looked further back. If i was ever going to see even id say this was it. And according to the guidelines, id be....wrong.

I can say dont worry about it and just know that it's usually/always going to be outnumbered but i just like getting as much info as i can. Being wrong....bothers me....because.... im never wrong. Just ask my wife, she tells me that all the time...:eek:

On to the next one. Thx