Texas @ Michigan plays (Video)
 

Is this a foul?

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Peace

yes

Yes to which question? The one in the post or one of the two at the beginning of the video or the one overlayed on the upper left corner of the entire video when your mouse is over the video?

I'll assume it is to the text in the post....I agree....foul.

I have a foul.

Play on, backpedaling defender in LGP, looks to be vertical or very close to it, and the offense creates the contact, I have nothing.

I see what ballgame99 sees... a defender with LGP backpeddling, and never moving forward into the dribbler's path.

Could you guys that said "yes" explain what you saw?

Not a foul. What did the defender do wrong? He had LGP, he was moving back, he maintained his vertical space, and all contact was initiated by the offense. No way I have a foul on the defense. If I did call it and saw the tape I would accept that I made an incorrect call.

For NCAAM folks...

Is this a primary or secondary defender? I know the rule says that in an outnumbering fastbreak that all defenders are "initially" secondary; but when do primary defenders begin to exist, so to speak, on a fastbreak?

Not sure if that has anything to do with this play, but just curious.

Illegal jump stop

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You are a primary defender once you establish LGP. Which on an outnumbered fastbreak cannot be done in the RA. This defender for all intensive purposes is a primary defender.

However even if he were secondary the RA restriction does not apply if the defender maintains verticality and jumps to make a play to defend the shot. They MUST be airborne and vertical for the RA restriction to not apply to them.

Jumped sideways across an airborne shooter's path where the contact occurred.

That's what I see.

So a player that established LGP cannot move sideways to maintain?

Not once the shooter is airborne.

This is a GREAT play to discuss in terms of positioning and play calling.

Since the introduction of the RA, I have had trouble with this play (as the new L and C) because I will look at the defender's location (feet). By the time the offensive player starts his shooting motion, I'm more likely to catch the last 1/3 of his shot.

In this case, I could understand why the L might have missed the initial contact by Tx-4's right arm on the Mi-10's shooting right arm.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h1...psnq5bxeet.jpg

Tx-4 started vertical and was retreating, however I feel his right arm moved out of his vertical plane and contacted Mi-10's forearm.
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h1...psiuexcvwk.jpg

Fair enough. However I don't see what the defender did wrong here. Back pedaling with the offensive player initiating all the contact. I don't see myself calling this a foul on the defense. Play on.

The defender was not just backpedaling. If he was, there would not have been any contact. The defender is moving laterally (at least 3 feet to his left) and backwards, and he is doing so after the offensive player has gone airborne. Easy foul on the defense.

Some of this you know but i think it helps to see it all...

Secondary defenders are players who come to help after another defender, primary, is beaten. A player coming to double the low post is also considered a secondary defender.

Secondary defenders cannot set up in the RA to attempt TO TAKE a charge or a "push" foul. They can jump to try to block a shot or pass. If they are in the RA and try to take a charge etc it is an automatic block.

In outnumbering fast break situations, say a 2 on 1 or even a 3 on 2, all defenders are considered secondary. They cannot try to take charge etc in the RA. When the fast break is over, say they pull the ball out, or shoot it other rules kick back in. After a rebound there are NO secondary defenders IF the rebounder makes an immediate move the the basket. Everybody is primary so the RA restriction isn't relevant.

If the ball is pulled out we go back to regular rules. a primary defender is guarding a player and a secondary player is one who comes to help after primary beaten. I havnt seen interps on arbiter etc but this is how i interp it.

If the fast break is 2 on 2 then the defender guarding the ball is primary. if offense comes at him and he sets up in RA and takes charge he is ok. He is primary. it was not an outnumbering break. If defender beats him and the remaining defender slides over, he is a secondary defender and RA rules apply.

The foul, after the travel, would be for B1 coming down with his right arm. If that arm had stayed vertical, I would have nothing.

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He ended the dribble with one foot on the floor, jumped off it and landed REALLYYY close to simultaneously…but not simultaneously so i think your correct on the travel. I would not have called that.

Philosophy wise I would not call that a travel. I think that is took close in live speed. But I was wondering when someone was going to point that out on the video. I was wondering the same thing after I slowed it down.

Peace

It took me watching it twice with the last slo-mo finally revealing the contact on the arm (is this is good time to stress the importance of angles?). Agree completely with you BNR.

Other thing that occurred to me is, if we're reffing the defense with this one, we're looking for LGP, if the defense did anything that would negate LGP, and verticality. Usually seeing the arm(s) drop is a good indication, if there's contact, the defender is responsible for it.

So if this player was knocked down in the RA rather than blocking the shot, it would be a PC foul, correct?

I see that too but didn't see it initially.

I'd have to look again but i thought it looked like a 2 on 2 break. There are players behind but 2 on 2 essentially to me. Not outnumbering fast break. So the player who fouled, is guarding the player with the ball initially. If he had set up in the RA and taken a charge regular block charge rules apply. RA isn't factor. he is a primary defender.

If a player jumps and maintains verticality then the RA restriction does not apply and a player control foul can be called.

This is incorrect as all players are initially secondary, they can become primary and can take a charge anywhere. They cannot become primary within the RA. There is a case play that illustrates this, I just don't have my book on me. The example is 3 on 2 break where the ball handler takes the ball all the way and one of the 2 defenders committing to the ball handler above the 3 point arc (although where doesn't matter as long as its not RA). That defender is the primary and even if the contact initiates within the RA as long as LGP was maintained its a PC foul.

Yes, but my question was addressing this player in the video. He's a primary defender who can back into the RA and take a charge, right?

Yes he can. The RA only applies to secondary defenders in a block charge situation on a play to score. If a guy is just dribbling around RA doesn't apply.

Correct. I also think there was a clarification sent out specifically addressing this earlier in the season.

There are only two defenders back, they are outnumbers. If all the other players just watched, maybe you have a point there. But not being outnumbered from my understanding is when all 5 defenders are back. Then each defender has a man potentially. This still fits the rule. But again the rule only applies when a player is on the floor. When the player jumps up in the air, they are treated like any other place on the floor.

Peace

As a player, coach and referee that is not an outnumbered fast break. 2 defensive players back, 2 offensive players at point of attack. Behind them is an offensive and defensive player. I would tell my point guard to look as he is going up floor and if he can slow down and let players on each side fill the wings we may be able to turn a 2 on 2 into a 3 on 2.

Here we have 2 defensive players back and 2 offensive players heading to the rim. That's a fast break. The other players are trailing close to each other. If there was an offensive player trailing the play and no defense around you could say it is a 3 on 2. That's not the case here.
You can have an "even" fast break as opposed to an "outnumbered" one without having all 5 players back. Look at the play and how many offense and defense are there on the break.

I guess i should add that i dont get the interps from arbiter etc. maybe that is what they have said.
I do agree that all this isnt a factor in this play because defender is not trying to take charge etc. he can jump to block shot.

I am not talking as a player or coach. That is the interpretation from the rules committee or the Supervisor of Officials. This has been addressed in the NCAA video the last couple of years.

Peace

Yes, i edited because i dont get the videos. However, you will never ever convince me that to have an "even" fast break all 5 defenders have to be back. That's just silly.

This was a 2 on 2 fast break.

I am not trying to convince you, I am telling you how the rule is applied. Coaches, players and fans all speak different languages than officials. So nothing is new here.

Peace

So, unless 5 defenders are back there can be no "even" fast break? Without 5 defenders back we always have an "outnumbered" fast break situation? That ignores what a fast break is. I've seen stranger things i suppose but that doesnt make any sense to me. Outnumbered to me means 2 on 1 or 3 on 2. If its 1 on 1, that's even. If its 2 on 2 that's even. If its 4 on 3 that's odd. If its 4 on 4 that's even....

I dont see 5 back as a requirement.

If the defense gets 5 back it's no longer a fast break...

I am just telling you what was stated in some videos. Maybe there is an A.R. That makes this clearer as well. There is nothing that defines what you said that is is not an outnumbered break. There are two Michigan players ahead, but right behind them are the other Michigan players and some Texas players trailing.

At 7 seconds in the video I posted, there was 5 Michigan players in the picture and only 4 Texas players in the picture. One Texas player was trailing all players on this break.

Here is an example of the play at different times.
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Peace

[QUOTE=JRutledge;994382]I am just telling you what was stated in some videos. Maybe there is an A.R. That makes this clearer as well. There is nothing that defines what you said that is is not an outnumbered break. There are two Michigan players ahead, but right behind them are the other Michigan players and some Texas players trailing.

At 7 seconds in the video I posted, there was 5 Michigan players in the picture and only 4 Texas players in the picture. One Texas player was trailing all players on this break.

Here is an example of the play at different times.
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Peace

Again, I haven't seen the videos from NCAA. I'm pretty confident though that we can have an "even" fast break without all 5 people back. Again, when I think of outnumbered fast break I'm not looking in the backcourt. I'm looking at who's where as we approach the basket. That's basketball. This play is 2 on 2 when we talk about an even or odd fast break.

A little later in the video, there is a point where all 5 Michigan players are in the frontcourt against only 4 Texas players. Granted, 3 of the Michigan players are behind the ball handler, but I would still consider it an outnumbered fast break by NCAA-M guidelines.

Outnumbered or not, you have a defender who alights in an attempt to block a shot. Therefore the RA is not in play...regardless if the defender is the primary or secondary.

BTW I have a foul...defender violates POV in both plays IMO.

Yes, we all agree about the shot blocking aspect. I'm trying to figure out where and when do we look to decide what is "outnumbered." As I said, I don't see the videos so I'm probably wrong.

In this play because we have 2 defenders back and 2 pushing the play I'd think this was "even". If we had another Michigan player right behind them with no one else around I'd certainly think of him a the 3rd making it 3 on 2.

I see what Jeff means when he shows me the video but i consider those people trailing not really part of the fast break. They may be part of some secondary break but i see this as 2 on 2. Anyway, i need to find the videos. Thx

Based on the case book, it's any outnumbering fast break, regardless if it is defense or offense that has more players.

A.R. 101. Team A is on a 3 on 2 or a 2 on 3 fast break, and any player on Team B takes an initial guarding position (1) within the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, or (2) outside the restricted area with two feet on the floor and facing the opponent, in an attempt to draw a player control/charging foul. A2, after receiving a pass, crashes into the torso of the Team B player, and the official calls a player control/charging foul.

RULING 1: The official is incorrect. In any outnumbering fast break situation, all Team B players are initially secondary defenders. The Team B player may not establish initial legal guarding position inside the restricted area, and the illegal contact by B is a blocking foul.

2: The official is correct. Even though the Team B player is initially a secondary defender, he did not establish initial guarding position inside the restricted area. When illegal contact occurs, it shall be a player control/charging foul.
(Rule 4-35.4, 4-30 and 10-1.14)

Yeah i was aware of that play. depending on where, when and how many players you include, you can say even or odd just about any time. If we view the entire floor to make the decision it's likely odd every time…. i think i may just call everything odd and say don't set up initially in the arc.

Jeff, do you have any examples of "even" under the guidelines?

Guys the rule just says that on an uneven fastbreak defenders are INITIALLY all secondary defenders. One can become a primary defender in an uneven fastbreak when they meet the criteria. They do not remain a secondary defender UNTIL the number of players even out, they remain a secondary defender until they become a primary defender.

Clearly a foul IMO.

Is there a 2nd video that I'm missing?

Yes, I know initially is important and i had left that out a few pages ago. Now, I was looking at what is considered an "even" fast break. In outnumbered situations all are secondary defenders, initially, and cannot establish initial LGP in the RA.

If we call it an "even" fast break then regular rules apply. in this video, lets say number 4 is back and instead of trying to block the shot he sets up to take a charge and the first place (initial) he establishes LGP is in the RA. If we call it "even" numbered fast break he is ok because he isn't a secondary defender.

If we call this "outnumbered" --block because he established LGP initially in the RA.

Irrespective of anything the RA restriction does not apply to an defender that is airborne making a play on the ball. The only time the RA is used in a case where you would have called a PC foul however the player did not meet the requirements due to being (1) secondary (2) within the RA plane at the point of contact & (3) NOT airborne.

I know that. I'm not talking about airborne. assume for me that number 4 black initially established LGP in the RA on the ball handler. Assume he gets run over. Now, if you call that an "outnumbered" fast break its a block because he set up initially in the RA. If you say it wasn't outnumbered--"even" then charge because he's primary and can set up anywhere.

Look at Jeff's video clips (id like to know how he does that BTW). The second frame shows two offense and two defense out in front. behind them are another offense and defensive player. still even. behind them, near division line are 2 more offense and only one defense.

If i look at what i would call the point of attack, near the basket--id call this 2 on 2. If i look back a bit, i see 3 on 3. if i look back further to just inside the division line now we have an odd number. Without seeing the ncaa guidelines or videos i wouldn't really be including the guys at the division line as part of the "fast break." They are trailing the play and might be part of some secondary break. Anyway, i need to look at the guidelines and videos. i would like to see one where the ncaa calls it even as opposed to "outnumbered." thx

I do not have a specific example other than if you are not on a break anymore, then all the defenders are defending someone. Again I think this was addressed in the NCAA video on some level, but I would have to find that in my library.

Peace

You are making this more complicated than it is. If he initially obtained LGP within the RA and the contact happened within the RA then it's a block no matter what the situation. The defender is either primary or he isn't, and there are guidelines defining this. You are correct this is a 2on2 break. Even if it were a 3on2 break the players are all INITIALLY secondary. One or both of these 2 defenders CAN become primary, but they have to meet the requirements (pretty much gain LGP outside the RA). On say a 2on2 break both defenders don't have to INITIALLY be secondary. They COULD be. They could also both be primary, or one primary and one secondary.

It's on an uneven break ALL defenders secondary until they become primary.

Well, you are killing me…luckily i have 8 more lives...:cool: I don't agree that if he initially obtained LGP within the RA that is's a block no matter what. If we say this is an even fast break then 4 black can first establish LGP in the RA. If it is "even" numbered, not "outnumbered", he isn't considered secondary. Secondary defenders cannot initially establish position in the RA.

A defender can be considered a primary defender even though he is yet to establish a LGP on the player near him. 4 black is primary if we say this is an even break and he can first establish LGP in the RA. The question i have is what is even and what is outnumbered and where do you look to determine it.

I have 8 more lives left so ive got time to stay after this:) Let me know what I'm screwing up…I realize you may not have 8 more lives so its ok if you've had enough...

Correct point. How to determine an uneven fastbreak. Are there fewer number of defenders between the offensive team and the basket?

That is pretty much my point and guideline. It might be technically a 2 on 2 or 3 on 2 break, but that is not what I see as the rule has been defined. There are only 2 defenders back and most of the Michigan players are right with the ball before a defender is in front of them. I am not that good to try to split hairs here.

Peace

I just need to look at the videos and guidelines. If I'm the lead in this play I'm going to be looking straight across and seeing the 2 on 2 or the 3 on 3. I won't be looking back to the players at the division line. If that's what they want i know I'm going to need the C to help with that…a lot.

I guess i think of the secondary defender and RA stuff as being there to prevent "help like" Block/charge plays. In a 3 on 2 the middle man might pass ball to wing. they don't want either defender then sliding over to take charge in RA. no player got beat in that type of situation but they call him secondary because they don't want him sliding over in the RA. Similar type of play as the regular RA plays. Primary gets beat, somebody slides over/helps. Here if 4 black would set up in the RA it really isn't a "help like" play. There's no sliding over etc. I just wouldn't make the decision if it is outnumbered or not by looking at the division line or just inside of it. I would look closer to the basket and look at the numbers, and then the RA and then do math on number of players and then…..screw it up anyway…. I just need to look at the ncaam stuff. thx

I think the bottom line you are making this too complicated. You want to commingle coaching status to rules status. All RA players can be evaluated by a non-calling official. So if you think it is a outnumbered break and call it accordingly, a partner can come in and tell you otherwise to get the call right.

I just have remembered the stuff talked about in the meetings and remember parts of the video. I am a little busy right now and not my issue, so you will just have to wait unless someone else has some information themselves. Past NCAA videos are on YouTube or might even be on the NCAA Arbiter site, but I thin you are worrying too much about a situation that did not even result in an RA situation in the first place. The player jumped so the RA did not apply here at all.

BTW, I think it was not a foul when I saw the play live and went back and saw more of a foul when I saw the replay and slowed it down. But I see why it was not called either. But I do not think the outnumbered break had anything to do with the call. I just think the official made a ruling and probably considered other plays in the game as well. After all I think that official did an NFL a couple of days before that game. ;)

Peace

Making this more complicated again. All it means for a secondary defender is that they are not primary defender. With that comes certain guideline. IF a defender isn't primary then when and where can they establish LGP. The fact is on most fast breaks you may not have time to count as the lead if it's even or uneven, but you can usually have a faint clue a vast majority of the time. If unsure I would go with uneven make my call and then ask the C real quick if he has extra info and go from there. I would probably pregame this with a hand signal or such that either confirms my call or I need to chat with the C.

It's really not that tough.

No, I'm not making it too complicated. I want to know where it is you look and when to decide even or outnumbered. I know I can get help but I want to know where the cutoff is. I realize this play doesn't involve the RA. I realize Steratore was the official and I understand completely why he didn't have a foul. He's running etc. I think it was a foul on replay.

And, I'm not worrying. I just like to have the answers. Even to questions that may not come up much. And maybe I should understand sooner but I'm going to keep asking til I understand. I accepted your view that I look farther back, even to half court to decide even or outnumbered. I just don't know why we would go back that far and gave my reasons why I Wouldn't do that.

That's just making a statement. As I said earlier, I need to see the guidelines myself. I will find them. I appreciate you putting the plays up.

Well you are if you have several officials that work this level (not necessarily D1) that are telling you that you are making this a little too complicated. Because the rule is not written to be that defined.

And my comment about Steatore was sarcastic. Not really about his ability of an official. I was actually surprised he was on a college game either a day or two after his NFL game.

I understand, but the reality is that I do not think any of us can get the answer you are looking for even if you see the video. Even if I show you what I remember, it might not answer all your questions.

Peace

Most fast breaks we are just assuming that a defender who is back guarding the paint is initially a secondary defender. That is the accepted philosophy.

No one has ever worried about the technical distinction on which you are focusing, at least in any discussion I have had or any game I have officiated.

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He probably had 3 games leading up to the NFL games...
I have done college for a long time and since the RA came in. I realize nobody talks about what is outnumbered v even. I havnt worried about it and i havnt had an "even" situation yet. I guess on this one, if 4 black initially tried to establish LGP in the paint and get run over i would have said it was "even." Id be looking across and see 2 on 2 and maybe the 3 on 3. I would not have looked further back. If i was ever going to see even id say this was it. And according to the guidelines, id be....wrong.

I can say dont worry about it and just know that it's usually/always going to be outnumbered but i just like getting as much info as i can. Being wrong....bothers me....because.... im never wrong. Just ask my wife, she tells me that all the time...:eek:

On to the next one. Thx