9-9....?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In reality, it may get missed, but SHOULD get called. It's illegal. It's that simple.

I agree with the poster who stated that a 2-person crew is actually better positioned to make this call than a 3-person crew.

If I see this, I'm 99% sure I'd call it. I'm not convinced I'd see it, though.

I'm not sure a crew of 2 is going to see this significantly better, since the U is going to be on the opposite side of the court looking through the jumpers. If U can see it, though, it's going to be with the perfect line of sight (as opposed to trying to call this from the FT line extended.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Adam

If I see this, I'm 99% sure I'd call it. I'm not convinced I'd see it, though.

I'm not sure a crew of 2 is going to see this significantly better, since the U is going to be on the opposite side of the court looking through the jumpers. If U can see it, though, it's going to be with the perfect line of sight (as opposed to trying to call this from the FT line extended.

I think you are supposed to be at the 28' marks (or equivalent) -- and I think you'd be able to see it. Unlike SD Referee, I don't think this is "overly technical" or the wrong way to start the game.

[so cal lurker]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think you are supposed to be at the 28' marks (or equivalent) -- and I think you'd be able to see it. Unlike SD Referee, I don't think this is "overly technical" or the wrong way to start the game.

Gee whiz, are you gonna call if it if a player barely steps on the sideline during the jump, too?

Seriously, I don't see why one wouldn't call this if one was sure -- but I certainly see how one might well not be sure, both because it happens quickly and because it isn't one of things one is thinking about during a jump. (And, I suppose, because there are so few jumps in the modern game that there aren't a lot of chances to see the weird stuff actually happen.)

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by so cal lurker

because it isn't one of things one is thinking about during a jump.

(Camp speak warning): We need to be ready to officiate from the very beginning.

[deecee]

This will be my last foray into this topic. Those on the "if I see it I must call it" do you warn and or T a coach when they step out of the coaching box?

Do you call 3 seconds at 3 and 10 second FT at 10?

The reality of this play is that it's not getting called. It's so close do you really want to start the game with this hair to split? I'm not calling the play that is in this video a BC violation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by deecee

This will be my last foray into this topic. Those on the "if I see it I must call it" do you warn and or T a coach when they step out of the coaching box?

Do you call 3 seconds at 3 and 10 second FT at 10?

The reality of this play is that it's not getting called. It's so close do you really want to start the game with this hair to split? I'm not calling the play that is in this video a BC violation.

Boundary lines defining the play of the game are not subject to gray area decisions with regards to whether the player is or is not in/out of a certain area. If you know the player was in the frontcourt (and it is possible you may not) with the ball and stepped into the backcourt (or OOB), there really isn't a choice to be made. There is no wiggle room within this rule for an exception because it was close or at the beginning of the game.

With regards to the time-based examples you give, the time itself is somewhat subjective and both of those rules have had plenty of press on what they were really intended to address and it isn't just the location or even the time. Both are targeted at unfair advantages (big man under the basket) or borderline unsportsmanlike behavior or unreasonably delaying the game (refusing to shoot a FT).

As for the T on the coach, no. Same reason, not how it was intended to be handled.

Personally, I don't shy away form calling something because it is close, I call things because they're the right thing to call. We're paid to split those hairs and not calling it is merely splitting the hair the other way.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think you are supposed to be at the 28' marks (or equivalent) -- and I think you'd be able to see it. Unlike SD Referee, I don't think this is "overly technical" or the wrong way to start the game.

Like somebody above said, do you call 3 seconds as soon as you hit 3 on your count? Do you call every single tiny travel when no advantage was gained.

I just think it's a ticky tack thing to call and the wrong way to start a game. It's nothing more than being too deep into the rule book.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Because, in my opinion, it's a ticky tack thing to call one second into the game. It has little to no impact on the game other than an official trying to show how smart he is.

I doubt any coach would know it was a violation and I doubt anybody in the crowd would either. Do we really want to blow the whistle one second into the game for this? I don't.

In my experience, "ticky tack" is an excuse typically used by officials who either don't know the rules or are too scared to do their job and enforce them.

So you're saying I should officiate based on what rules I think the coaches and fans know? Yikes.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

In my experience, "ticky tack" is an excuse typically used by officials who either don't know the rules or are too scared to do their job and enforce them.

So you're saying I should officiate based on what rules I think the coaches and fans know? Yikes.

Wow!!!! Way to put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything even close to that.

What I really said was, I'm not going to go 100% letter of the law in the rule book and call that 1 second into the game. The fans and coaches won't know any better so I don't see anybody getting too upset about that. Fellow officials included. Now, if you want to interpret that as me letting the coaches and fans determine what I call, that's your right. You can be ignorant if you choose.

If you also want to take that as me being too scared and not knowing the rules, that is also your right. I'm willing to bet I know the rules just as well as you do. I'm just not calling something 1 second into the game that has ZERO effect on the game.

Some people on this board take themselves too seriously. They also think you need to call the game to the letter of law or, rules of NFHS, at all times without allowing for personal judgment and what the intent of the rule is. I will put you into that category, since you like to put words in my mouth.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Are you incapable of speaking for yourself? You like to put words in other peoples' mouths. Please let us know your stance on calling 3 seconds as soon as you hit 3.

I was not responding to you.

Originally Posted by SD Referee

Wow!!!! Way to put words in my mouth. I didn't say anything even close to that.

What I really said was, I'm not going to go 100% letter of the law in the rule book and call that 1 second into the game. The fans and coaches won't know any better so I don't see anybody getting too upset about that. Fellow officials included. Now, if you want to interpret that as me letting the coaches and fans determine what I call, that's your right. You can be ignorant if you choose.

If you also want to take that as me being too scared and not knowing the rules, that is also your right. I'm willing to bet I know the rules just as well as you do. I'm just not calling something 1 second into the game that has ZERO effect on the game.

Some people on this board take themselves too seriously. They also think you need to call the game to the letter of law or, rules of NFHS, at all times without allowing for personal judgment and what the intent of the rule is. I will put you into that category, since you like to put words in my mouth.

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I doubt any coach would know it was a violation and I doubt anybody in the crowd would either. Do we really want to blow the whistle one second into the game for this? I don't.

This is exactly what you said. Since when do we care if coaches know what is and isn't a violation? I couldn't care less how "upset" fans and coaches get when I make a call.

A lot of violations (including easy backcourt calls) don't really have an effect on the game. Are you going to ignore all those too? Are you going to ignore a dribbler's heel touching the sideline when there are no players defending him?

And, my stance on 3 seconds is simple. I call it when in my judgment a player is gaining an advantage. Why? Because that's the intent of the rule. Advantage/disadvantage/effect on the game has NOTHING to do with backcourt violations.

I'm not saying I would make this call. But it wouldn't be because I actively chose to ignore it. It would be because I missed it. And I wouldn't lose sleep over it, nor would my assigner. Nor would my assigner be upset if I did call it.

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I was not responding to you.



This is exactly what you said. Since when do we care if coaches know what is and isn't a violation? I couldn't care less how "upset" fans and coaches get when I make a call.

A lot of violations (including easy backcourt calls) don't really have an effect on the game. Are you going to ignore all those too? Are you going to ignore a dribbler's heel touching the sideline when there are no players defending him?

And, my stance on 3 seconds is simple. I call it when in my judgment a player is gaining an advantage. Why? Because that's the intent of the rule. Advantage/disadvantage/effect on the game has NOTHING to do with backcourt violations.

I'm not saying I would make this call. But it wouldn't be because I actively chose to ignore it. It would be because I missed it. And I wouldn't lose sleep over it, nor would my assigner. Nor would my assigner be upset if I did call it.

That is exactly what I said, great job of cutting and pasting. What I did NOT say is that coaches and the crowd knowing the rules or not has any effect on what I call. I was simply implying that I don't think anybody will jump all over you no matter which way you decide to go on that play. I don't care who gets mad and it has no bearing on my calls. Your reading comprehension is atrocious!

I am on record as saying as that is ticky tack and I'm not calling it 1 second into the game. It has NO effect on the game at all. No matter who makes the call one way or the other, I would support it. Guys that want to go letter of the law in regards to the rules book, that's fine. Guys that no call it and play on is also fine with me.

To answer your other questions in one all encompassing answer...........yes. I will ignore things when circumstances allow for it. I don't call travels that aren't super obvious in blow out games. If somebody on a team that is behind by 50 barely touches a line and I might be the only one that saw it, I don't call it. I don't call carries late in a blow out game and it's been the only time it's happened (there are lessons to be taught if the player constantly does it and you need to teach them). Those are a few examples of things I won't call. I suppose some on this board won't like it. That's fine. ALL of the guys that I work with are the same way and treat the above circumstances like I do.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

The fans and coaches won't know any better so I don't see anybody getting too upset about that. Fellow officials included.

In some (but not all) ways, I think it comes down to this assumption. I *think* you are saying that if you call it, black coach will think "we got away with a cheap violation call" and white coach will think "what a ticky-tack way to start the game."

To the extent that's true, I would challenge it. I think if you call it, black will think "that's an official who knows the rules and what to call" and white will think the same thing. If you don't call it, white will think "we got away with one" and black will what to know "why wasn't that called?" -- and I don't think there's a good answer to that.

And, if you won't call it in the first second, when will you call it? Suppose it happens during a throw-in in the last minute of a tie game (and white / black bat the ball around for a few seconds and then white leaps from the FC, grabs the ball and lands in the BC)?

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In some (but not all) ways, I think it comes down to this assumption. I *think* you are saying that if you call it, black coach will think "we got away with a cheap violation call" and white coach will think "what a ticky-tack way to start the game."

To the extent that's true, I would challenge it. I think if you call it, black will think "that's an official who knows the rules and what to call" and white will think the same thing. If you don't call it, white will think "we got away with one" and black will what to know "why wasn't that called?" -- and I don't think there's a good answer to that.

And, if you won't call it in the first second, when will you call it? Suppose it happens during a throw-in in the last minute of a tie game (and white / black bat the ball around for a few seconds and then white leaps from the FC, grabs the ball and lands in the BC)?

I agree with you Bob, but that's exactly the opposite of my point. My point was that I don't think any coaches would notice it or know the rule, nor would they make a big deal out of you not calling it.

I don't want to blow the whistle 1 second into the game for a play that half of this board thinks is a violation and half thinks it's not or not worthy of calling. Why not play on? An obvious, egregious backcourt violation is worth calling. I just don't feel that calling this serves anybody well and me not calling it has ZERO to do with what the coaches or crowd thinks. For most of us, the crowd and coaches disagree with 50% or more of our calls on a nightly basis. If we cared about what they think we wouldn't call anything.

I understand your point about late in the game. If it's obvious and an easy call, I will call it. If it happens quickly like in this video, I'm not going to call it until I process it and I'm sure of what I saw. I would guess that a lot of us are going to miss it. Maybe not. The guy that processes it quickly and makes the call is doing a great job. Some guys might just process it slower and miss it or just not know the rules. It's hard to say until you are in that situation.

[jeremy341a]

Originally Posted by SD Referee

I'm just not calling something 1 second into the game that has ZERO effect on the game.

An extra possession has zero impact on the game?

[SD Referee]

Originally Posted by jeremy341a

An extra possession has zero impact on the game?

Really? I was waiting for somebody to say that. I suppose if the whole game plays out to a 1 point game, then I suppose somebody could complain "what if we had gotten just one more possession........"? Then yes, it would have some effect.

What if that same game is a 50 point blowout? Does the missed extra possession mean anything?

That question and assumption can go both ways.