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Old Sun Oct 23, 2016, 03:18pm
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Multiple Foul Scenario

I was reading an article in the most recent Referee magazine entitled "De-Classify NFHS Fouls." There is a scenario where A1 attempts (a missed) 3 point shot and is fouled by B1 (simple contact) and at the same time by B2 (intentional foul) during the attempt. A1 is entitled to four free throws. So far so good, as this is an application of Rule 10, Penalty 6.b.(2) - two free throws for each foul on an unsuccessful 3-point try. However, the author goes on to state that if A1 had made the shot, it could have a been a 7 point play. How does this work? I would have thought that if A1 had made the shot he would have been entitled to one free throw under 10, Penalty 6.a.(3) (one free throw for each foul on a successful three point try) for the simple contact foul and two free throws under 10, Penalty 6.b.(1) (two free throws for each intentional or flagrant foul) for the intentional foul. What am I missing?

Thanks.
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2016, 04:04pm
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Even I refuse to touch this with a 10-foot pole. Any takers?


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Old Sun Oct 23, 2016, 05:38pm
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Never called it, never will call it and don't recommend anybody call it. I'm assuming if either foul is intentional then there are 2 shots for each foul. (Even the non intentional.)
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2016, 10:37pm
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Multiple Foul Scenario

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Never called it, never will call it and don't recommend anybody call it. I'm assuming if either foul is intentional then there are 2 shots for each foul. (Even the non intentional.)

For newer officials, I would take BigCat's advice. Recommended never making a multiple foul call by yourself. Explaining the penalty sequence to an incredulous coach could kill your career even if you're right. Just pick one of the two and enforce it; if one is int/flag, go with that, otherwise either pick the harder contact or perhaps the player with less fouls thus far (this is called game awareness and game management).

Knowing the rule is good for three reasons:

1. Post-game bar trivia.
2. Because some genius always thinks it makes for a good test question.
3. That "as often as the Cubs win the Pennant" moment when there's a double whistle and somehow you and your partner both report a different foul to the table without realizing the other is reporting something...and now you both have something.


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Last edited by crosscountry55; Sun Oct 23, 2016 at 10:39pm.
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Old Sun Oct 23, 2016, 11:00pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefBob View Post
I was reading an article in the most recent Referee magazine entitled "De-Classify NFHS Fouls." There is a scenario where A1 attempts (a missed) 3 point shot and is fouled by B1 (simple contact) and at the same time by B2 (intentional foul) during the attempt. A1 is entitled to four free throws. So far so good, as this is an application of Rule 10, Penalty 6.b.(2) - two free throws for each foul on an unsuccessful 3-point try. However, the author goes on to state that if A1 had made the shot, it could have a been a 7 point play. How does this work? I would have thought that if A1 had made the shot he would have been entitled to one free throw under 10, Penalty 6.a.(3) (one free throw for each foul on a successful three point try) for the simple contact foul and two free throws under 10, Penalty 6.b.(1) (two free throws for each intentional or flagrant foul) for the intentional foul. What am I missing?

Thanks.

As a rules interpreter I love plays like this because it requires officials to study the rules book especially Rule 4. But in real life, I only see one foul: The IPF by B2.

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Old Sun Oct 23, 2016, 11:15pm
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Not the same thing, but what do you do when you have the following happen?

Player A1 drives the lane and goes up for a shot and after the releases plows into the legally established defender (B1), while at the same time a second defender (B5) tried taking the head off the shooter.

We actually had this play in a wRECk game last season (we use NFHS rules).

We ruled an offensive foul on A1, then a flagrant foul on B5. We then had multiple technical issued for both coaches going ballistic about play and the calls. In the end I think we had 1 offensive foul, 1 flagrant foul (with ejection), two deadball techs for players mouthing off to each other, one coach picked up his first tech, and the other coach picked up his second tech and was also ejected.
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Old Mon Oct 24, 2016, 07:58am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chapmaja View Post
Not the same thing, but what do you do when you have the following happen?

Player A1 drives the lane and goes up for a shot and after the releases plows into the legally established defender (B1), while at the same time a second defender (B5) tried taking the head off the shooter.

We actually had this play in a wRECk game last season (we use NFHS rules).

We ruled an offensive foul on A1, then a flagrant foul on B5. We then had multiple technical issued for both coaches going ballistic about play and the calls. In the end I think we had 1 offensive foul, 1 flagrant foul (with ejection), two deadball techs for players mouthing off to each other, one coach picked up his first tech, and the other coach picked up his second tech and was also ejected.
See case 4.19.9A.

And, note that if A1 fouled B1 while B1 "tried to take A1's head off" then the ruling would be different. That fact that the chapmaja's play is a false double foul and not a double foul makes all the difference.
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Old Mon Oct 24, 2016, 11:19am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
For newer officials, I would take BigCat's advice. Recommended never making a multiple foul call by yourself. Explaining the penalty sequence to an incredulous coach could kill your career even if you're right. Just pick one of the two and enforce it; if one is int/flag, go with that, otherwise either pick the harder contact or perhaps the player with less fouls thus far (this is called game awareness and game management).

Knowing the rule is good for three reasons:

1. Post-game bar trivia.
2. Because some genius always thinks it makes for a good test question.
3. That "as often as the Cubs win the Pennant" moment when there's a double whistle and somehow you and your partner both report a different foul to the table without realizing the other is reporting something...and now you both have something.
Man, that's pretty harsh!! Why you gotta hate? They're the REIGNING NL CHAMPS FOR CRYING OUTLOUD!!!

GO CUBS!!! SCALP CHIEF WAHOO!!!
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2016, 01:23pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefBob View Post
I was reading an article in the most recent Referee magazine entitled "De-Classify NFHS Fouls." There is a scenario where A1 attempts (a missed) 3 point shot and is fouled by B1 (simple contact) and at the same time by B2 (intentional foul) during the attempt. A1 is entitled to four free throws. So far so good, as this is an application of Rule 10, Penalty 6.b.(2) - two free throws for each foul on an unsuccessful 3-point try. However, the author goes on to state that if A1 had made the shot, it could have a been a 7 point play. How does this work? I would have thought that if A1 had made the shot he would have been entitled to one free throw under 10, Penalty 6.a.(3) (one free throw for each foul on a successful three point try) for the simple contact foul and two free throws under 10, Penalty 6.b.(1) (two free throws for each intentional or flagrant foul) for the intentional foul. What am I missing?

Thanks.
Since when do we only give two free throws on a shooter fouled on a 3 point shot who misses the shot....?
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2016, 01:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigT View Post
Since when do we only give two free throws on a shooter fouled on a 3 point shot who misses the shot....?
Only if it's more than one foul. One foul = 3 shots. Otherwise it's 2 shots per foul.
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Old Tue Oct 25, 2016, 04:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RefBob View Post
I was reading an article in the most recent Referee magazine entitled "De-Classify NFHS Fouls." There is a scenario where A1 attempts (a missed) 3 point shot and is fouled by B1 (simple contact) and at the same time by B2 (intentional foul) during the attempt. A1 is entitled to four free throws. So far so good, as this is an application of Rule 10, Penalty 6.b.(2) - two free throws for each foul on an unsuccessful 3-point try. However, the author goes on to state that if A1 had made the shot, it could have a been a 7 point play. How does this work? I would have thought that if A1 had made the shot he would have been entitled to one free throw under 10, Penalty 6.a.(3) (one free throw for each foul on a successful three point try) for the simple contact foul and two free throws under 10, Penalty 6.b.(1) (two free throws for each intentional or flagrant foul) for the intentional foul. What am I missing?

Thanks.
I think the article is wrong and you are right. The original foul doesn't take on the penalty for an intentional foul when the other foul in the play is an intentional. At most, you can get a 6 point play.
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Old Wed Oct 26, 2016, 12:39pm
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Thanks all. Appreciate all the input. As a number of you noted and recommended, I agree that in a game situation the best approach for a new guy like me would be to save the in-depth analysis for a later time and just call the harder foul.
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Old Wed Oct 26, 2016, 01:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad View Post
Only if it's more than one foul. One foul = 3 shots. Otherwise it's 2 shots per foul.
Thanks Dad!
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