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Old Wed Oct 25, 2000, 08:27am
JLC JLC is offline
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Was reading the current case book yesterday and came upon a scenario that confused me. A1 was throwing ball in from baseline (designated spot). A1 held the ball out over the line, so it was over the playing court. B1 took the ball out of A1's hand and scored. This was ruled a legal play. Yet, if A1 were to hand the ball to A2, it is a violation. Can anyone tell me why it is legal for the defender to take it from A1's hand, while an offensive player cannot. I would have thought that while they were both touching the ball, it would be out of bounds by A1.
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Old Wed Oct 25, 2000, 08:59am
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Out of Bounds

That's a thought provoking question!

My comment (certainly not the authoritative answer) is that A1 is burdened to make a legal throw-in ... he/she must make the throw-in within 5 seconds, he/she must not throw the ball through the basket, etc. So, if anything goes "wrong" on the throw-in by team A, team B should be the beneficiary.

In a situation where A1 hands the ball to A2, it is clear which team violated. Where B1 takes the ball from A1, it gets a little fuzzier ... who would the violation be on?

If the violation is on B, then A has benefitted even though it didnot make a legal throw-in. That inconsistent with A's obligation to do so.

If the violation is on A and the ball is awarded to B, then A has a chance to set-up its defense. So even though B is awarded the ball, it loses some advantage it had versus letting play proceed from the stolen throw-in.

Here's a twist on your question ... what if A1 holds the ball out on the inbounds side of the baseline and B1 grabs the ball ... then A1 pulls the ball back across to the out-of-bounds side of the baseline with B1 still holding the ball? Should (by rule) B1 be charged a technical foul for contacting the ball across the line? Not a likely occurrence, but it could happen in a lower level game.




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Old Wed Oct 25, 2000, 11:30am
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Re: Out of Bounds

Quote:
Originally posted by rpwall
That's a thought provoking question!

Here's a twist on your question ... what if A1 holds the ball out on the inbounds side of the baseline and B1 grabs the ball ... then A1 pulls the ball back across to the out-of-bounds side of the baseline with B1 still holding the ball? Should (by rule) B1 be charged a technical foul for contacting the ball across the line? Not a likely occurrence, but it could happen in a lower level game.

When B1 grabs the ball and A1 pulls it back, while both maintain a hold on the ball, it is a held ball. The held ball occurs before A1 gets the ball OOB. No Technical. Go with the arrow for the ensuing throw-in. If the current throw-in is already and AP throw-in, A1 retains the arrow for this new throw-in since no factor that causes the arrow to change has yet occurred. Only when the throw-in has ended by a violation or by a touch on the court after the release is the arrow switched.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 25th, 2000 at 11:41 AM]
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Old Thu Oct 26, 2000, 10:32am
Suppref
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The throw in requires the ball to be thrown directly in bounds (7-6-1). So A1 is penalized for handing it to A2.
If A1 and B1 struggle and A1 pulls the ball back out of B1 grasp, violation on A1, B's ball out of bounds on the spot.
Have fun - -Suppref
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Old Thu Oct 26, 2000, 01:32pm
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Cameron - if one player is OOB, can it legally be a held ball?

Example: In the run of play, ball is already in-bounds. Player B grabs at the ball while player A is in possession, and player B steps out while establishing a held ball. It would be an OOB violation on player B and A gets ball, right? B can't establish the held ball if they step out first.

Similarly, I would think the case cited here would result in a bizarre OOB call on A if they actually put the ball over the line and allowed B to tie them up legally while they were standing out of bounds. Wouldn't want to be the ref that had to call anything on this!
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Old Thu Oct 26, 2000, 01:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Cameron - if one player is OOB, can it legally be a held ball?
Yes, but only on a throw-in.


Quote:

Example: In the run of play, ball is already in-bounds. Player B grabs at the ball while player A is in possession, and player B steps out while establishing a held ball. It would be an OOB violation on player B and A gets ball, right? B can't establish the held ball if they step out first.
Correct. One of the two has to happen first. Either B1 causes the ball to be OOB or it is a held ball. When the first one happens, the ball is dead and the clock is stopped.

Quote:

Similarly, I would think the case cited here would result in a bizarre OOB call on A if they actually put the ball over the line and allowed B to tie them up legally while they were standing out of bounds. Wouldn't want to be the ref that had to call anything on this!
On this one, it is not OOB since A1 is legally OOB with the ball. A1 can not violate by being OOB. Only provisions of the throw-in can be violated (by A1) until the throw-in has ended.

See cases 7.6.3A and 7.6.3F (from a 98-99 book that I have here at work).

Ultimately, B1's touching of the ball on the inbounds side of the line is of no significance. If it is knocked loose, B1 may retreive the ball. If A1 then touches it before coming inbounds, it would be a OOB violation on A1. If the two players tie it up, it's a held ball since the throw-in had not ended.
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