Women's Final Four Officials

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*I was surprised that the crew was entirely female. Not even one male ref. Which prompted me to wonder--since I had recently been writing about "age, racial, and gender bias" in officiating--why was a male ref not on there?

I have to be very cautious about drawing conclusions because it has been pointed out to me that my analysis of "age, gender, racial bias in the officiating industry" is too "simplistic". Was the evaluative rating of the male refs too low? Was there not a male ref willing to request the game? Were these the three highest rated refs available--which just by sheer probability just happened to be all "female"?
If I were to postulate why there were no male refs in that game, then the most parsimonious explanation would simply be: "the assignor only wanted to use only female refs".

I have no problem with it. Other than the coaches who have to win to get to that level, why not the crew represent the players on the floor?

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have no problem with it. Other than the coaches who have to win to get to that level, why not the crew represent the players on the floor?

Peace

Until they hire 19-22 year olds to officiate, this will never happen.

Oh, wait, I know what you mean...

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*I was surprised that the crew was entirely female. Not even one male ref. Which prompted me to wonder--since I had recently been writing about "age, racial, and gender bias" in officiating--why was a male ref not on there?

I have to be very cautious about drawing conclusions because it has been pointed out to me that my analysis of "age, gender, racial bias in the officiating industry" is too "simplistic". Was the evaluative rating of the male refs too low? Was there not a male ref willing to request the game? Were these the three highest rated refs available--which just by sheer probability just happened to be all "female"?
If I were to postulate why there were no male refs in that game, then the most parsimonious explanation would simply be: "the assignor only wanted to use only female refs".

In the last 6 years there have been 54 on-court Final Four officials. 16 have been male.

2 males have worked the final in the last 6 years out of 18 assignments.

If you're going to work women's college as a male, this is a reality you sign up for.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

In the last 6 years there have been 54 on-court Final Four officials. 16 have been male.

2 males have worked the final in the last 6 years out of 18 assignments.

If you're going to work women's college as a male, this is a reality you sign up for.

And a reason that many of us have decided that was not for us. I actually like their philosophy and respect it totally.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have no problem with it. Other than the coaches who have to win to get to that level, why not the crew represent the players on the floor?

Peace

Originally Posted by Rich

Until they hire 19-22 year olds to officiate, this will never happen.

Oh, wait, I know what you mean...

That should happen the same day the players on the floor represent the communities which the teams represent. :/

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*I was surprised that the crew was entirely female. Not even one male ref. Which prompted me to wonder--since I had recently been writing about "age, racial, and gender bias" in officiating--why was a male ref not on there?

I have to be very cautious about drawing conclusions because it has been pointed out to me that my analysis of "age, gender, racial bias in the officiating industry" is too "simplistic". Was the evaluative rating of the male refs too low? Was there not a male ref willing to request the game? Were these the three highest rated refs available--which just by sheer probability just happened to be all "female"?
If I were to postulate why there were no male refs in that game, then the most parsimonious explanation would simply be: "the assignor only wanted to use only female refs".

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have no problem with it. Other than the coaches who have to win to get to that level, why not the crew represent the players on the floor?

Peace

What Jeff said. And as an NCAAW official it doesn't bother me one bit.

As I said/implied earlier in this thread, I work with a lot fewer female officials than you might think in both NCAA and HS GV. I had two quarterfinal and one semifinal GV game last month and of the nine officials assigned only one was female. It changes slightly in the lower levels of NCAA and JUCO but not a whole lot. Believe me, men have their chances but the desire is to have female officials for the high-profile events at the highest levels. Makes sense to me.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That should happen the same day the players on the floor represent the communities which the teams represent. :/

Well I believe that officials should look more like a cross section of everyone rather than just 3 of the same type of person on every game. I work in a rather urban area often and there is an effort to hire officials for games that look like the participants on some level.

Peace

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

...there is an effort to hire officials for games that look like the participants on some level.

Several yeas ago I was selected to officiate a game involving the visiting Irish National Junior Team. I was told that both my partner, and I, were selected because we were both Irish American (our assignment commissioner at the time was also Irish American). It seemed "right" at the time, but now I wonder if that's the "American" way? Should race, national origin, religion, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc., be used in the assignment of games?

[Matt S.]

...is when I've worked games between a pair of Catholic schools. I once had a coach tell me that "I must be a St. so-and-so" guy. After I told him I was Jewish, he didn't say a word the rest of the game.

[Kansas Ref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Several yeas ago I was selected to officiate a game involving the visiting Irish National Junior Team. I was told that both my partner, and I, were selected because we were both Irish American (our assignment commissioner at the time was also Irish American). It seemed "right" at the time, but now I wonder if that's the "American" way? Should race, national origin, religion, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc., be used in the assignment of games?

*Interesting: you were selected to work the game based on your "declared ethnicity". In that instance we can only blame the assignor for promulgating "ethnic bias"; however, I believe what the subtext of your post is: "should you have accepted the games knowing that your were a prejudicial choice"? Or should you feel fortunate because your ethnic background just happened to match what they assignor was looking for? This complex and I will have to think more on it. But thanks for sharing Billymacs.

[jpgc99]

Originally Posted by Kansas Ref

*Interesting: you were selected to work the game based on your "declared ethnicity". In that instance we can only blame the assignor for promulgating "ethnic bias"; however, I believe what the subtext of your post is: "should you have accepted the games knowing that your were a prejudicial choice"? Or should you feel fortunate because your ethnic background just happened to match what they assignor was looking for? This complex and I will have to think more on it. But thanks for sharing Billymacs.

You need to think less not more.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Several yeas ago I was selected to officiate a game involving the visiting Irish National Junior Team. I was told that both my partner, and I, were selected because we were both Irish American (our assignment commissioner at the time was also Irish American). It seemed "right" at the time, but now I wonder if that's the "American" way? Should race, national origin, religion, gender, sexual orientation, age, etc., be used in the assignment of games?

So three white guys working a game with one team all white and the other team all of a completely different race sound fair to you? Well that is the American way, because that happens all the time. And when something happens, guess what is sometimes the accusation? Why would you not hire people in officiating like the participants ever? We are not talking about major college here where everything is on video and multiple angles and scrutiny are a common place. This is often youth or high school sports where people take all kinds of bias into their positions (and I am not talking about the officials BTW).

I had a coach once ask me when he had 3 African-Americans working his game when he was at a suburban school that happened to be entirely African-American and he was playing a school from the city that was entire African-American. He asked me and my partner, "Why can I not get 3 Black officials when I am playing (Fill in a team from his conference that was clearly not like his community)?" I told him, "I really cannot answer that, we do not assign anything."

The bottom line is the American way is often having officials on games that look nothing like the actual players or top teams in sight. If that is the case, there is something very wrong. There needs to be diversity when there are diversity in the participants. Just like a business does not put a staff of people that work in a place that look nothing like or talk nothing like the people they want to gain their business. Do they put non-Spanish speaking people in communities where the entire community speaks Spanish? Nope, not unless they want someone else to get their business. Why do we accept that in what we are doing?

Peace

[Rich]

I have a lot of schools witn all Caucasian players and coaches. Based on what you're saying, I should stop sending African-American officials to those schools.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So three white guys working a game with one team all white and the other team all of a completely different race sound fair to you? Well that is the American way, because that happens all the time. And when something happens, guess what is sometimes the accusation? Why would you not hire people in officiating like the participants ever? We are not talking about major college here where everything is on video and multiple angles and scrutiny are a common place. This is often youth or high school sports where people take all kinds of bias into their positions (and I am not talking about the officials BTW).

I had a coach once ask me when he had 3 African-Americans working his game when he was at a suburban school that happened to be entirely African-American and he was playing a school from the city that was entire African-American. He asked me and my partner, "Why can I not get 3 Black officials when I am playing (Fill in a team from his conference that was clearly not like his community)?" I told him, "I really cannot answer that, we do not assign anything."

The bottom line is the American way is often having officials on games that look nothing like the actual players or top teams in sight. If that is the case, there is something very wrong. There needs to be diversity when there are diversity in the participants. Just like a business does not put a staff of people that work in a place that look nothing like or talk nothing like the people they want to gain their business. Do they put non-Spanish speaking people in communities where the entire community speaks Spanish? Nope, not unless they want someone else to get their business. Why do we accept that in what we are doing?

Peace

Jeff, you and I work many of the same schools, both HS and college, with many of the same group of officials. I agree with you, I have not worked with an official at either level that I thought was biased. I am sure there are a few of them out there, but I haven't personally worked with them.

Here is where I think your analogy to Spanish speaking communities and basketball officiating falls apart and why I disagree with your position on this issue. You are correct, it would be foolish not to have sales people who can speak Spanish working locations where the majority, if not all your potential customers will be speaking that language. However, you do not have to be of Hispanic decent to speak Spanish fluently. A person of any race or ethnicity that is capable of speaking Spanish would be able to work effectively in that area. In basketball, the thing that is analogous to language in your example is knowing the rules and mechanics. It is not being of the same race or ethnicity of the participants. Therefore, it shouldn't matter what the race or ethnicity or gender of the official is calling the game, as long as they can effectively speak the language of basketball.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Here is where I think your analogy to Spanish speaking communities and basketball officiating falls apart and why I disagree with your position on this issue. You are correct, it would be foolish not to have sales people who can speak Spanish working locations where the majority, if not all your potential customers will be speaking that language. However, you do not have to be of Hispanic decent to speak Spanish fluently.

I did not suggest that one individual has to speak Spanish, but you better have people in the office that do in that kind of community. And if everyone in a community speaks Spanish you better have several. That really was not a comparison to officiating other than to say that what works in one place, might not work in another place.

Originally Posted by johnny d

A person of any race or ethnicity that is capable of speaking Spanish would be able to work effectively in that area. In basketball, the thing that is analogous to language in your example is knowing the rules and mechanics. It is not being of the same race or ethnicity of the participants. Therefore, it shouldn't matter what the race or ethnicity or gender of the official is calling the game, as long as they can effectively speak the language of basketball.

Actually being of the same race as someone is not about knowing the rules, it is more about how you interact with the participants. There is a big difference in how African-Americans interact with African-American officials than they do someone not of that race or culture. And when we have conflict it might be easier to understand the interactions and to deal with the interactions. That is just a fact as it is in other aspects of life. So if you are a person that is not used to certain places, that might be hard for you to adjust to or deal with. That is why you know we have people that have no desire or understanding of what it is like to work games in the CPS. And there is a reason there are only certain officials that work those games as us from the suburbs almost never get asked. So it must matter to someone, it is just who is doing the assigning.

Peace