Cincinnati and St. Joseph last play of the game.

[Sharpshooternes]

This final play is full of fun stuff. Cinci player goes up for a dunk off the pass with less than a second less. He puts it down to tie the game and send it to overtime, but time expires. After review, the bucket is wiped away. They lose by two. The part that kind of bothered me is that I thought he should have been shooting 2 for head contact on the attempted blocked shot. Thoughts on this?


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[deecee]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

This final play is full of fun stuff. Cinci player goes up for a dunk off the pass with less than a second less. He puts it down to tie the game and send it to overtime, but time expires. After review, the bucket is wiped away. They lose by two. The part that kind of bothered me is that I thought he should have been shooting 2 for head contact on the attempted blocked shot. Thoughts on this?


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Yes he was fouled, and I think it should have been called.

[crosscountry55]

Let me ask you this? Would have noticed it, or at least been sure of it, in real time?

I think it was a foul, but I can understand how it was passed on because it's the kind of foul that you might not be sure about, and in that situation especially you need high certainty to make the call.

And of course you can't use replay to upgrade a no-call to a non-flagrant foul, so c'est la vie.

[deecee]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Let me ask you this? Would have noticed it, or at least been sure of it, in real time?

I think it was a foul, but I can understand how it was passed on because it's the kind of foul that you might not be sure about, and in that situation especially you need high certainty to make the call.

And of course you can't use replay to upgrade a no-call to a non-flagrant foul, so c'est la vie.

There are 3 guys watching this play most likely, if NONE of them saw the contact then whats the point of having THREE guys watch this play?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by deecee

There are 3 guys watching this play most likely, if NONE of them saw the contact then whats the point of having THREE guys watch this play?

We don't put three guys on the court so we can maximize the odds of a whistle being put on marginal contact.

I think it's presumptuous to assume that two officials abandoned their primary and ball-watched in this situation. There was a lot of stuff to watch under the basket immediately leading up to the dunk attempt.

[Spence]

Originally Posted by Sharpshooternes

This final play is full of fun stuff. Cinci player goes up for a dunk off the pass with less than a second less. He puts it down to tie the game and send it to overtime, but time expires. After review, the bucket is wiped away. They lose by two. The part that kind of bothered me is that I thought he should have been shooting 2 for head contact on the attempted blocked shot. Thoughts on this?


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The basket would not have counted because the shot release didn't beat the buzzer, correct? Thus, two shots?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by Spence

The basket would not have counted because the shot release didn't beat the buzzer, correct? Thus, two shots?

In NCAA, I think they'd go back and put the time on the clock at the moment the foul occurred. The dunker still gets continuous motion, so I'd say it counts...and one...with a few tenths remaining.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

... dunker still gets continuous motion, so I'd say it counts...and one...

Even with continuous motion, doesn't the shot have to be released before the horn in order for the field goal to count?

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even with continuous motion, doesn't the shot have to be released before the horn in order for the field goal to count?

Why would the clock still be running between the foul and the release?

I think you are thinking of the case of a foul on an airborne shooter.


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[deecee]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even with continuous motion, doesn't the shot have to be released before the horn in order for the field goal to count?

He is partially correct. If there is definitive knowledge that the foul occurred before the timer was stopped then the basket counts. In this case it would not however due to the following case

AR114

On a foul that occurs near the expiration of time, officials must determine that the clock did not stop when the whistle sounded either because a timing mistake occurred or because it was so near the expiration of time that the timer is unable the stop the clock.

If it's a timing mistake then count the bucket and put time back on. If its the latter then basket doesn't count and award 2 FTs.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

We don't put three guys on the court so we can maximize the odds of a whistle being put on marginal contact.

I think it's presumptuous to assume that two officials abandoned their primary and ball-watched in this situation. There was a lot of stuff to watch under the basket immediately leading up to the dunk attempt.

A play like this is EXACTLY why there are 3 guys. If you think any of the officials are looking elsewhere then you are wrong. Once that ball got to the offensive player all eyes were on him.

Contact to the head is NOT marginal contact and the NCAA and NFHS has said so repeatedly. You can think that's the case but you are flat out wrong.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Even with continuous motion, doesn't the shot have to be released before the horn in order for the field goal to count?

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Why would the clock still be running between the foul and the release?

Good point. Moving away from this specific situation, in general, in all cases, doesn't the shot have to be released before the horn (assuming no timing error) in order for the field goal to count?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

Why would the clock still be running between the foul and the release?

High school game. No video replay. Foul occurs with 0.1 second remaining in period. Whistle is sounded with 0.0 seconds (but no horn) remaining in period. Ball is still in shooter's hand when horn sounds. Ball enters basket. Neither official (assume two person Connecticut) is watching the scoreboard for definite knowledge.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

We don't put three guys on the court so we can maximize the odds of a whistle being put on marginal contact.

I think it's presumptuous to assume that two officials abandoned their primary and ball-watched in this situation. There was a lot of stuff to watch under the basket immediately leading up to the dunk attempt.

Ball handler going to the rack and clock running out -- of COURSE the officials are going to be looking there.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

High school game. No video replay. Foul occurs with 0.1 second remaining in period. Whistle is sounded with 0.0 seconds (but no horn) remaining in period. Ball is still in shooter's hand when horn sounds. Ball enters basket. Neither official (assume two person Connecticut) is watching the scoreboard for definite knowledge.

This is correct for a HS game and for an NCAAW game with no monitor.

IF, in NCAAW, there is a monitor and the whistle was before the horn, put that time back up on the clock, count the basket, shoot 1 FT. I *think* the NCAAM rule is (substantially) the same.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

This is correct for a HS game.

Thank you.