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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 05:06pm
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Bookkeeping Predicament

AAU Game with a rule that you only shoot 1-and-1 at the 10th team foul in the half.

Parent volunteers at the table. Timer is not keeping fouls on the scoreboard and there is only one book.

Late in the second half you get to that point where you feel like there have been a lot of fouls on Team A. You check with the table and the scorer says that's the 15th foul. Shocked, you check the book and notice that the scorer was only keeping fouls for the whole game, not per half.

What do you do?



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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 05:21pm
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Not care because it is AAU and not your duty to keep track of the fouls.
The game will get done faster without FT attempts and that's all that AAU officials want since they are only there for the money.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 05:31pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Not care because it is AAU and not your duty to keep track of the fouls.
The game will get done faster without FT attempts and that's all that AAU officials want since they are only there for the money.
This.

I'd take a moment to count the number of fouls I KNOW were called in the 2nd half and go forward from there.

Next game, do a better pregame with the scorer.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 05:53pm
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Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Next game, do a better pregame with the scorer.
As if anyone ever does a pregame with the scorers & timer in an AAU game, who are frequently teenagers messing around with their phones anyway.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 06:26pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Not care because it is AAU and not your duty to keep track of the fouls.
The game will get done faster without FT attempts and that's all that AAU officials want since they are only there for the money.
That was helpful.

If you take the game have some awareness of the competency level of the table and adjust accordingly. I 100% guarantee this scenario would not happen in my game, I can't speak for your abilities.

Maybe you and your kind only do AAU for the money, but there are officials outside of your all-knowing bubble who work AAU as part of off-season continuous improvement.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 06:36pm
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Oh my beating heart. I agree with BNR
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 06:36pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
That was helpful.

If you take the game have some awareness of the competency level of the table and adjust accordingly. I 100% guarantee this scenario would not happen in my game, I can't speak for your abilities.

Maybe you and your kind only do AAU for the money, but there are officials outside of your all-knowing bubble who work AAU as part of off-season continuous improvement.
I don't work AAU at all. I stopped many years ago due to my frustration with the organizers who only cared about maximizing their profit on the event and want officials to work for 1/2 of the HS game fee, other officials who only cared about the extra $ they were scrounging up and took six or seven games/day and didn't hustle, having incompetent and unattentive teenagers at the table, who have been left there for 10 hours a day or more, the idiotic parents, and wacko coaches.

These events were not productive or enjoyable for me. They were filled with problems and undesirable interactions. Therefore, I got away from them.

Perhaps AAU events in your area are different. Perhaps you and others approach them as opportunities to improve. Perhaps the parents and coaches around you are respectful. If so, best wishes, but don't criticize my post for espousing what most people find to be realistic.

Last edited by Nevadaref; Sat Mar 19, 2016 at 06:38pm.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 06:51pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I don't work AAU at all. I stopped many years ago due to my frustration with the organizers who only cared about maximizing their profit on the event and want officials to work for 1/2 of the HS game fee, other officials who only cared about the extra $ they were scrounging up and took six or seven games/day and didn't hustle, having incompetent and unattentive teenagers at the table, who have been left there for 10 hours a day or more, the idiotic parents, and wacko coaches.

These events were not productive or enjoyable for me. They were filled with problems and undesirable interactions. Therefore, I got away from them.

Perhaps AAU events in your area are different. Perhaps you and others approach them as opportunities to improve. Perhaps the parents and coaches around you are respectful. If so, best wishes, but don't criticize my post for espousing what most people find to be realistic.
So I criticize a specific statement you make, and you take offense. You make a generalized criticism of an entire group of officials, but I'm not supposed to comment. I'm trying to figure out how that makes a scintilla of logical sense.

Back to the subject at hand, no matter if it's AAU, rec ball, a summer league, a fall league, or any other venue outside of the normal, in-season scholastic season, an official who is out there to improve him/herself will work on game awareness such as at least loosely keeping track of team fouls and being somewhat aware when the bonus should be shot. It will help with their "real" games for those times when the table is less than stellar.

My association picked up a school this season where the only scoreboard is directly above the center circle and it does not display team fouls. Working that venue with the attitude that "it's not my job to keep track of team fouls" will not serve any official well if they have career aspirations. And this is not some obscure school that nobody wants to work. They made the state semi's in 2015 and lost in OT in the state final this season.


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Oh my beating heart. I agree with BNR
Think of yourself as being slowly cured of your ills.
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Last edited by Raymond; Sat Mar 19, 2016 at 06:54pm.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 07:06pm
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
AAU Game with a rule that you only shoot 1-and-1 at the 10th team foul in the half.

Parent volunteers at the table. Timer is not keeping fouls on the scoreboard and there is only one book.

Late in the second half you get to that point where you feel like there have been a lot of fouls on Team A. You check with the table and the scorer says that's the 15th foul. Shocked, you check the book and notice that the scorer was only keeping fouls for the whole game, not per half.

What do you do?
I know this doesn't apply directly to you as you are not trying to get picked up on the NCAA-W's side, but the brand new hire as the MEAC women's staff supervisor expects officials to know such information.

One of your friendly local NBA officials has the expectation that anytime you blow your whistle for a foul you know all the consequences of said whistle: bonus or throw-in, time on shot clock (if applicable), disqualifying foul (5th or 6th depending on rule set).

Game awareness above and beyond the "average" official is most definitely a discriminator when it is time to make decisions (post-season assignments; hire to a college staff; recommend as a hire, etc).

Just food for thought, you never know who is watching. You're on top of this situation, then you go to a camp and an observer remembers you as the guy at his son/daughter's game who managed the game and kept everything flowing smoothly. You would be surprised at the amount of stories I've heard from accomplished officials who got noticed by the right person or the friend of the right person for doing things above and beyond expectations.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 08:36pm
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Originally Posted by BadNewsRef View Post
I know this doesn't apply directly to you as you are not trying to get picked up on the NCAA-W's side, but the brand new hire as the MEAC women's staff supervisor expects officials to know such information.

One of your friendly local NBA officials has the expectation that anytime you blow your whistle for a foul you know all the consequences of said whistle: bonus or throw-in, time on shot clock (if applicable), disqualifying foul (5th or 6th depending on rule set).

Game awareness above and beyond the "average" official is most definitely a discriminator when it is time to make decisions (post-season assignments; hire to a college staff; recommend as a hire, etc).

Just food for thought, you never know who is watching. You're on top of this situation, then you go to a camp and an observer remembers you as the guy at his son/daughter's game who managed the game and kept everything flowing smoothly. You would be surprised at the amount of stories I've heard from accomplished officials who got noticed by the right person or the friend of the right person for doing things above and beyond expectations.
Yup, I get all this. Better than I used to be, that's for sure. I'm more aware of individual foul counts, who's got 4, who I've called 3 on, when we're at 7 TFs, etc. Work in progress. I may never be a college official but I enjoy the pursuit of betterment.

With three minutes between halves and in need of a drink of water, I didn't check the book at halftime like I would in a HS game. Wish I or my partner had. So we ended up where we did.

Sometimes despite best intentions, you make a mistake. When that happens, there's usually a procedure to follow. I can't think of one in this case, however. So I go back to my original question of "What do you do?" for which I have not yet received any professional opinions or rule/case citations.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 08:45pm
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Think of yourself as being slowly cured of your ills.

Hahahaha. I lol'd. Thanks.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 08:47pm
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
So I go back to my original question of "What do you do?" for which I have not yet received any professional opinions or rule/case citations.
Yes you did. Post 3. I agree with it.

For example, if you shot FTs in the first half, then there must have been at least 10 fouls in the first half -- the second half can be no more than 5. If you didn't shoot in the first half, you must have at least 6 in the second.

Maybe the scorer remembers what the numbers were at half-time.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 09:01pm
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Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
Yes you did. Post 3. I agree with it.

For example, if you shot FTs in the first half, then there must have been at least 10 fouls in the first half -- the second half can be no more than 5. If you didn't shoot in the first half, you must have at least 6 in the second.

Maybe the scorer remembers what the numbers were at half-time.
Post 3. Good point. My partner tried that, but could only recall exactly 5 players who we'd called fouls in the 2nd half with certainty. But I knew in general the likely TF count was in the 8-10 range, which is why we inquired in the first place.

Scorer was clueless. Couldn't remember a thing under pressure. She looked like she wanted to hide under the table.

This was a good and measured response. Thank you.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 09:01pm
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Of course if you were within timeframe for the most recent foul, you could go CE and shoot, then play on from there. Otherwise, I'd say not much you can do.
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Old Sat Mar 19, 2016, 09:11pm
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Originally Posted by crosscountry55 View Post
... So I go back to my original question of "What do you do?" for which I have not yet received any professional opinions or rule/case citations.
That answer depends on whether or not you shot bonus free throws in the first half.

There are usually not any rules citations for such an off-the-wall situation. My mindset isn't what should I do if this happens again, my mindset is is how do I ensure this never happens again. Quite sure this will never happen again in any game you do no matter what level it is and how bad the scorekeepers are.
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Last edited by Raymond; Sun Mar 20, 2016 at 08:06am.
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