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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:04pm
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I know three different women who have worked boys Washington state finals in the last five ish years, and that's just the ones I know personally...
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 16, 2016, 01:30pm
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I've worked with a couple of female officials at the boys level. Our assignor has shown no qualms about putting female officials on boys games. I see a lot of them at the lower divisions and not an uncommon occurrence at the varsity level. I don't see a ton of them working at our highest classifications, but there are several who work those levels consistently, but yet are also very qualified and capable of handling those games.

I had a BV at our 4A level this year with a female official. Talked to her before the game and that was her first time at that level. We did our usual pregame and I asked her if she had any issues callings boys games before. She didn't but also did detect some uneasiness with some players and coaches. Told her for better or worse that may be a regular occurrence until they see what you can do on the court.

Did tell her because she was small'ish (5'5 like) that her mechanics and presentation need to be much 'bigger' than her stature. All the more reason to look confident, move confident, act confident etc...If she can do that and her calls are what they should be she'll be fine. To her credit she did this. Her calls were fine and she didn't appear timid at all. Now a couple of times she did get sucked in as trail and when a steal occurred she was in a horrible position and was beat down the court, but that was a product of not seeing this type of speed on a regular basis.

I have no problems calling a boys game with a female official provided they are capable of handling such a game.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 16, 2016, 07:10pm
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It's common place in Arkansas for women to ref boys games. I haven't really thought to pay attention, but I am pretty sure women have worked boys games in the state tournament


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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 16, 2016, 10:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
What would you do if a coach or school told you that they didn't want any female officials for their boys contests?

What would you do if a coach or school told you that they didn't want any male officials for their girls contests?
I'd mention they might want to speak to their district attorney. This has lawsuit written all over it.

I kind of find it hard to believe that anyone would ask this and not understand the ramifications. I can't think of one thing that would prevent a woman from officiating a boys game. Conventional thought might say it's physical but If you feel a woman can't officiate a boys game for physical reasons, I can show you a roster full of fat men that can't either.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 16, 2016, 10:40pm
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Even with stricter enforcement and new emphasis on reducing physicality to promote freedom of movement, there is a big difference in how the boys and girls games are played, and the expectations for how much physicality is expected and/or accepted. Around here, you do not have to work both boys and girls games, even at the HS level. In fact most officials do not work both. I wouldn't say there would be a problem with a female working a boys game here, it happens, although very rarely, the problem would be with a girls official, female or male, working a boys game. The perception, and most often the reality is that it is very difficult to move back and forth between both. Many officials, regardless of sex, would have a hard time adjusting to the speed and physicality of the boys game, if the overwhelming majority of their games were girls games.

It wasn't a female trying to officiate a boys game, but we had a similar situation a few years ago in the IL 2A state championship game. A school from the Chicago Catholic League, that played up tempo, physical basketball, and who normally competed against and was competitive with much larger schools, was in that game. The officials were three men from an area of the state where they would hardly, if ever, see basketball at that speed, athleticism, and physicality. The officials were completely overmatched and rapidly lost control of the game. Many videos from that game were posted on this site.

Bottom line, for most officials, it isn't a matter of how good you may be, like most people, one is going to be a creature of habit. Through them into a radically new environment, and most are going to sink.

Could a female work boys games consistently around here. Of course she could, but she would have to commit to working almost exclusively boys games from early in her career. If she was good, she would move up the ranks, but much slower on the boys side. We have more officials interested in working boys games than girls games, so she would have more competition. Because she could move up much faster on the girls side, most female officials in this area choose working girls games.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 16, 2016, 11:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
Even with stricter enforcement and new emphasis on reducing physicality to promote freedom of movement, there is a big difference in how the boys and girls games are played, and the expectations for how much physicality is expected and/or accepted. Around here, you do not have to work both boys and girls games, even at the HS level. In fact most officials do not work both. I wouldn't say there would be a problem with a female working a boys game here, it happens, although very rarely, the problem would be with a girls official, female or male, working a boys game. The perception, and most often the reality is that it is very difficult to move back and forth between both. Many officials, regardless of sex, would have a hard time adjusting to the speed and physicality of the boys game, if the overwhelming majority of their games were girls games.

It wasn't a female trying to officiate a boys game, but we had a similar situation a few years ago in the IL 2A state championship game. A school from the Chicago Catholic League, that played up tempo, physical basketball, and who normally competed against and was competitive with much larger schools, was in that game. The officials were three men from an area of the state where they would hardly, if ever, see basketball at that speed, athleticism, and physicality. The officials were completely overmatched and rapidly lost control of the game. Many videos from that game were posted on this site.

Bottom line, for most officials, it isn't a matter of how good you may be, like most people, one is going to be a creature of habit. Through them into a radically new environment, and most are going to sink.

Could a female work boys games consistently around here. Of course she could, but she would have to commit to working almost exclusively boys games from early in her career. If she was good, she would move up the ranks, but much slower on the boys side. We have more officials interested in working boys games than girls games, so she would have more competition. Because she could move up much faster on the girls side, most female officials in this area choose working girls games.
Not surprising, you said this better than me.

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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 16, 2016, 11:16pm
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Vive La Différence ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
... there is a big difference in how the boys and girls games are played ... it is very difficult to move back and forth between both ...
I sometimes have a tough time adjusting from a girls game on a Thursday night to a boys game on a Friday night. Yet, I have absolutely no problem doing the opposite (a girls game the next night after a boys game).
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 17, 2016, 08:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
I sometimes have a tough time adjusting from a girls game on a Thursday night to a boys game on a Friday night. Yet, I have absolutely no problem doing the opposite (a girls game the next night after a boys game).
This was the first time in my career I didn't have to do a single girls game at all. And I loved it.

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Last edited by Raymond; Thu Mar 17, 2016 at 10:35am.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 17, 2016, 01:21pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny d View Post
Even with stricter enforcement and new emphasis on reducing physicality to promote freedom of movement, there is a big difference in how the boys and girls games are played, and the expectations for how much physicality is expected and/or accepted. Around here, you do not have to work both boys and girls games, even at the HS level. In fact most officials do not work both. I wouldn't say there would be a problem with a female working a boys game here, it happens, although very rarely, the problem would be with a girls official, female or male, working a boys game. The perception, and most often the reality is that it is very difficult to move back and forth between both. Many officials, regardless of sex, would have a hard time adjusting to the speed and physicality of the boys game, if the overwhelming majority of their games were girls games.

It wasn't a female trying to officiate a boys game, but we had a similar situation a few years ago in the IL 2A state championship game. A school from the Chicago Catholic League, that played up tempo, physical basketball, and who normally competed against and was competitive with much larger schools, was in that game. The officials were three men from an area of the state where they would hardly, if ever, see basketball at that speed, athleticism, and physicality. The officials were completely overmatched and rapidly lost control of the game. Many videos from that game were posted on this site.

Bottom line, for most officials, it isn't a matter of how good you may be, like most people, one is going to be a creature of habit. Through them into a radically new environment, and most are going to sink.

Could a female work boys games consistently around here. Of course she could, but she would have to commit to working almost exclusively boys games from early in her career. If she was good, she would move up the ranks, but much slower on the boys side. We have more officials interested in working boys games than girls games, so she would have more competition. Because she could move up much faster on the girls side, most female officials in this area choose working girls games.
Great post, but I think the bold text could be over-looked or skimmed over. While the majority of my games are mens, I have no problem switching back and forth. As long as you're used to the tempo then I really see no problem, but it's why I think good officials should get a taste of it, even if they want to solely do women's basketball. Then again, I love watching games in 1.5x-2x and attempting to officiate.

BNR's post is an opinion held by many officials and I have no problem with it. Personally, I enjoy doing both, usually, but there's probably some bias because over the last two years we've had an abnormal amount of D1 players on the women's side.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 17, 2016, 01:33pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad View Post
Great post, but I think the bold text could be over-looked or skimmed over. While the majority of my games are mens, I have no problem switching back and forth. As long as you're used to the tempo then I really see no problem, but it's why I think good officials should get a taste of it, even if they want to solely do women's basketball. Then again, I love watching games in 1.5x-2x and attempting to officiate.
I do not think that it is even about adjusting to calling the game, it is the standards that is also expected that tend to be very different as well.

I worked a game last year I believe that was a girls game and the coach went nuts over a play where his player went up for a shot and the only thing the defender touched was their loose part of their jersey on the shooter. The coach insisted that had to be a foul. If I had called that foul in a boys game, I would have been damn near crucified. I would rather not deal with the expectation that any girl that falls or is touched we must have a foul. That alone is the reason I accept no girls games. Girls can dribble through 3 defenders and coaches and players act like not calling a foul is a tragedy.

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 17, 2016, 01:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not think that it is even about adjusting to calling the game, it is the standards that is also expected that tend to be very different as well.

I worked a game last year I believe that was a girls game and the coach went nuts over a play where his player went up for a shot and the only thing the defender touched was their loose part of their jersey on the shooter. The coach insisted that had to be a foul. If I had called that foul in a boys game, I would have been damn near crucified. I would rather not deal with the expectation that any girl that falls or is touched we must have a foul. That alone is the reason I accept no girls games. Girls can dribble through 3 defenders and coaches and players act like not calling a foul is a tragedy.

Peace
Hmm, good point and I never really looked at it this way. I call both fairly similar and just deal with coaches if needed. I did have an argument in a big game this year with a "d1 women's official" who made a call right in front of me. His reasoning was we have to have a foul if a girl falls to the floor. He wouldn't budge after I threw logic at him for five minutes during half-time. I eventually just gave up.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 17, 2016, 03:10pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I worked a game last year I believe that was a girls game and the coach went nuts over a play ...
I thought that you didn't work girls basketball. You've written on this forum several times how you don't have to in your area and refuse to do so.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 17, 2016, 03:36pm
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One of the most important things in officiating is consistency, and this is what many of the posts above are really talking about. If you always officiate varsity boys basketball, you will likely identify the key things that you need to do to be consistent with the other officials that referee the same level, gender, type of basketball. If you do not quickly become consistent with them, you will not be calling that level for long.

In some areas, there is a noticeable difference in how the game is called --- by the various level (Varsity vs JV vs Youth), by the gender (boys vs girls), etc.

Any official will struggle when you take him out of the area where he works most of his games if the expectations are different.

For those of us that go to college camps, we often see this. There is a certain expectation teams, players, and coaches have for summer ball. They are used to getting a certain quality of official. When college guys come in, there is often a disconnect. The coaches don't realize they are getting the best officials in the area working their games; to them, we are actually inconsistent to how most of their summer games are called.

"When in Rome" can vary locally between the two genders and the various levels even in one area.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 17, 2016, 08:36pm
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Originally Posted by packersowner View Post
I can't think of one thing that would prevent a woman from officiating a boys game. Conventional thought might say it's physical but If you feel a woman can't officiate a boys game for physical reasons, I can show you a roster full of fat men that can't either.
Not to take away from the seriousness of this conversation, but I doubled over laughing when I read this.

Excellent (and funny) point.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 17, 2016, 09:03pm
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Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I thought that you didn't work girls basketball. You've written on this forum several times how you don't have to in your area and refuse to do so.
Yawn. Forum trolling is so 1998.
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