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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 11:54am
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Time out or not?

Saturday afternoon, this was the cherry on the sundae of one of 'those kind of games'

Boys varsity game, tied at 41, 2 mins to go in the 4th. I'm at T and A1 is trapped in the front corner of his offensive end, outside the 3-pt line opposite the benches. He jumps in an attempt to pass the ball and the instant the ball is released (in my opinion), A coach yells timeout.

Well, we all know what happens. B1, who was in A1's face, so the ball traveled about 1 ft in between them, intercepts and is coming down with the ball as L blows the whistle and signals time-out for A.

Gym erupts and my partner says during the time-out that 'he definitely still had the ball when the coach asked'.

I'm 50/50 on whether he did or not and I will let him live or die with the call. Has anyone ever immediately talked a partner out of a timeout in a situation like this? If the whistle blows while ball not in player control, it's still going back to A for inadvertent whistle, right?

What mechanics are used by your board on this or what suggestions can you offer? C was closest to timeout call by the coach, but couldn't determine possession, ball was in my primary & L had ball near him and heard coach request it. I'd like to use this in an upcoming board meeting to discuss, but want to hear your opinions first.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 12:01pm
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IF my partner want's to reach out of his PCA for something like this it's his pot to stew in. I won't even listen to a coach. I just respond, "I cannot speak for my partner so you should ask him." It's also not worth discussing until after the game with my partner.

In this case the official closest to the coach should make the determination if the TO was requested with they had player control. Next would be the official with PCA. Definitely NOT the third guy in progression. He's doesn't know where the ball WAS when the TO was called, unless he's a ball hawk.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 12:18pm
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There can be a brief, but legitimate delay between the TO request and the whistle, because unless we're looking at or standing right next to the coach when the request is made we have to quickly verify the request before blowing the whistle. What matters is was there player control at the moment the request was made, not when the whistle is blown.

This is the reason I wish they would change the rule back to the way it used to be and not let the coach request a timeout when the ball is live - request has to come from a player.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 01:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
IF my partner want's to reach out of his PCA for something like this it's his pot to stew in. I won't even listen to a coach. I just respond, "I cannot speak for my partner so you should ask him." It's also not worth discussing until after the game with my partner.

In this case the official closest to the coach should make the determination if the TO was requested with they had player control. Next would be the official with PCA. Definitely NOT the third guy in progression. He's doesn't know where the ball WAS when the TO was called, unless he's a ball hawk.
What????

Any official on the floor can grant the timeout if that can get a view on the ball and can confirm who is requesting the timeout. The C couldn't, apparently. They don't have to be ballwatching to look for it at the time of the request. The official with primary coverage can't talk his/her eyes off the play to verify who is yelling timeout. Anyone that hears timeout who can look to see where the ball is SHOULD grant it if they can see it in control. Seems like this partner is the perfect one to grant the time out since he/she could confirm the coach was calling for it and could see the ball. Often, it is an official farthest from the play that is facing the bench that gets this.
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Last edited by Camron Rust; Mon Feb 15, 2016 at 01:51pm.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 02:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimTaylor View Post
This is the reason I wish they would change the rule back to the way it used to be and not let the coach request a timeout when the ball is live - request has to come from a player.
NCAA-M now uses this rule. Most of us don't like it, myself included. The rule change has just created undue confusion and doesn't help the situation presented in the OP. You still have to judge whether or not there is control. It doesn't matter if the request comes from a player or the coach...
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 02:06pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
What????

Any official on the floor can grant the timeout if that can get a view on the ball and can confirm who is requesting the timeout. The C couldn't, apparently. They don't have to be ballwatching to look for it at the time of the request. The official with primary coverage can't talk his/her eyes off the play to verify who is yelling timeout. Anyone that hears timeout who can look to see where the ball is SHOULD grant it if they can see it in control. Seems like this partner is the perfect one to grant the time out since he/she could confirm the coach was calling for it and could see the ball. Often, it is an official farthest from the play that is facing the bench that gets this.
In this case I just didn't picture from the description that the L had the player and ball. He was just described as being near. I imagined L watching post play and ball in the corner behind him.

I would add that it's these officials that grant TO when opponents both have possession of the ball or when a ball is loose and we have an interrupted dribble. I do not prefer the farthest official to grant TO's unless possession is clear. Best case scenario is they may have been right, but in a lot of cases clear player/team control is questionable.
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Last edited by deecee; Mon Feb 15, 2016 at 02:09pm.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 02:10pm
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Originally Posted by jpgc99 View Post
NCAA-M now uses this rule. Most of us don't like it, myself included. The rule change has just created undue confusion and doesn't help the situation presented in the OP. You still have to judge whether or not there is control. It doesn't matter if the request comes from a player or the coach...
A lot easier to judge control if you haven't turned your head to the bench to verify who is requesting a TO.

I had no idea the NCAAM changed the rule this year.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 02:39pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deecee View Post
In this case I just didn't picture from the description that the L had the player and ball. He was just described as being near. I imagined L watching post play and ball in the corner behind him.

I would add that it's these officials that grant TO when opponents both have possession of the ball or when a ball is loose and we have an interrupted dribble. I do not prefer the farthest official to grant TO's unless possession is clear. Best case scenario is they may have been right, but in a lot of cases clear player/team control is questionable.
I see it as any official hears the coach request it, confirms that, then looks to check the status of the ball....regardless of where the ball is. If they can see that it was in PC at the time, great, grant the timeout....even if the whistle comes just after it is no longer in PC.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 02:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I see it as any official hears the coach request it, confirms that, then looks to check the status of the ball....regardless of where the ball is. If they can see that it was in PC at the time, great, grant the timeout....even if the whistle comes just after it is no longer in PC.
Uh oh. Someone's going to come along soon to say why you're wrong. Not me, cause you're not, of course.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 02:54pm
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NFHS Officials Manual 3.4.3 Held Ball:
A. While the PCA official is more likely to make the call, any official may recognize and sound his/her whistle for a held ball.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 02:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Camron Rust View Post
I see it as any official hears the coach request it, confirms that, then looks to check the status of the ball....regardless of where the ball is. If they can see that it was in PC at the time, great, grant the timeout....even if the whistle comes just after it is no longer in PC.
I don't disagree with this train of thought per se. I do think that often times officials out of position to grant the TO are making a guess and I think it's better they don't.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 04:08pm
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Player Control ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
A lot easier to judge control if you haven't turned your head to the bench to verify who is requesting a TO.

Agree.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 04:18pm
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when in doubt, grant

I tend to lean towards granting the timeout if it is 50/50 on PC.
I am ok with any official granting, but only if they are confident there is PC.

If the opposing coach is concerned, I will tell him he will get the same latitude when he wants a TO.

As a game management tool, we are better off to grant TO's then to ignore when PC is debatable.
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 04:21pm
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So lets say you talk your partner out of the timeout.

What are you going to do now, go IW then either give the ball back to A if they didn't loose possession and the coach now gets a freebie, or give the ball to B if they took control?
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Old Mon Feb 15, 2016, 04:21pm
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As for the OP.

The TO has been granted. There's no talking him out of it at this point anyway.

The only question, and I will approach my partner with this, is who gets the ball afterwards. I'm telling my partner that I'm 100% sure the pass was in the air when the TO was requested, and that B should get the ball after the TO.

If he insists otherwise, it's his call. I'm generally pretty convincing when I know what I'm talking about, so if he doesn't budge, I'll give it to him. It would be a quick conversation.
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