NC v Louisville

[VaTerp]

Originally Posted by jrutledge

i am not trying to justify anything. The issue is when does the official have a foul. He might not feel there really is a foul until it is clear he is shooting. Now if you rule a foul before, then you cannot justify a shot in this case as at the very least you have to have touched the ball to start your motion. But when the offensive player is kind of undercut and that is not clear until the shooting motion, i am giving the shots. I am going to penalize the defense as much as i can in those case when everything is happening that fast.

This is not about the rule, it is about judgment. Judgment allows a lot of people to wait until you see the result of everything before you blow your whistle. If you disagree, that is fine. I am just thinking it is good officiating to wait. I have no issues with the call.

Peace

+1

[JetMetFan]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I also believe I am giving the player everything he can get and that would be the basket and the foul. Contact did start before he touches the ball, but what was he trying to ultimately do? Shoot. I am giving that to him or not taking it away because part of the contact started before he touches the pass.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This last part is not relevant is wrong by rule. Attempting to justify an incorrect call with some made-up rationale doesn't accomplish anything.

Just follow the rule.

It actually is relevant - to a point - because we're told to let plays start, develop and finish. If the Louisville player doesn't catch the ball or can't control it while he's up there then put a whistle on the contact prior to the shot attempt. He caught the ball so go to the next step: can he shoot it? Yes, go to the next step: Was he hit, displaced or not allowed to land safely? Yes. Put a whistle on that. In other words, the Louisville player's offensive movement wasn't hindered until he was shooting the ball.

[Nevadaref]

1. What Rut wrote in his second post in this sequence is vastly different from what he said in the first one (quoted above by JetMet). In the first he wrote that he would just give the play to the offense which is in blatant disregard of the rule. His second post is reasonable in stating that the official did not deem (or perhaps did not see) the contact prior to the jump and catch as a rising to the level of a foul (I disagree and believe that it is a clear holding foul, but understand if the Lead couldn't see this from where he was.) and only thought that the body bump after the catch was worthy of a whistle.

2. I don't believe that your understanding of Start/Develop/Finish is accurate. This is exemplary of the problem that occurs when someone comes up with a teaching philosophy which is then perverted by hundreds of camp clinicians across the country. They either fail to properly teach the entire content of the philosophy or alter it to their personal taste, thus ruining it.

SDF does not mean to wait and see what happens on a play, only giving a whistle if it is needed. Nor does it mean that marginal contact becomes illegal when it puts one player at a disadvantage. Those are different philosophies of which we can debate the merits in another thread as they are beyond the scope of this post.

So what does SDF mean? First and foremost, SDF only applies during a drive to the basket by a ballhandler. The player already has the ball at the "Start" phase. If illegal contact, such as a handcheck or blocking foul, occurs now officials are instructed to whistle this quickly and make the call right away. Next comes the Develop phase in which the ballhandler is moving towards the goal and seems to have an advantageous position on the defender, but has not yet begun the act of shooting. The philosophy is to hold the whistle during this phase unless the contact is severe so as not to negate the better position of the offensive player and benefit the beaten defender as a whistle at this point would deprive the attacker of a quality scoring opportunity and result in either a throw-in or bonus FTs. Finally, we reach the Finish phase. At this point the offensive player is in the act of shooting and any contact which is occuring, whether continuous or continual from the development phase, can be penalized without unfairly depriving the offensive player of the opportunity to score.
Officials are taught to whistle either in the Start or Finish phases, but not in the Develop phase.
This does not equate to either the wait & see or advantage/disadvantage ways of thinking.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

This last part is not relevant is wrong by rule. Attempting to justify an incorrect call with some made-up rationale doesn't accomplish anything.

Just follow the rule.

You can write an entire dissertation on why you think you are right, that is a shooting foul to me. I have called it a shooting foul in the past, I will continue to do so in the future, and no supervisor I have will tell me I got it wrong.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

SDF does not mean to wait and see what happens on a play, only giving a whistle if it is needed. Nor does it mean that marginal contact becomes illegal when it puts one player at a disadvantage. Those are different philosophies of which we can debate the merits in another thread as they are beyond the scope of this post.

The game of basketball has evolved Nevada -- that is exactly what Start, Develop, Finish has come to mean. I'm sorry you have fallen behind the times. This ain't the 50's anymore.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

1. What Rut wrote in his second post in this sequence is vastly different from what he said in the first one (quoted above by JetMet). In the first he wrote that he would just give the play to the offense which is in blatant disregard of the rule. His second post is reasonable in stating that the official did not deem (or perhaps did not see) the contact prior to the jump and catch as a rising to the level of a foul (I disagree and believe that it is a clear holding foul, but understand if the Lead couldn't see this from where he was.) and only thought that the body bump after the catch was worthy of a whistle.

Will you please get over yourself. Every time someone says something you disagree with you keep talking about disregarding a rule. I am so glad I never have to officiate with a guy like you that goes around telling everyone what they should do when you do not have any power to do so.

Good Lord man. We are talking about a philosophic which is referenced by everyone else but you for some strange and odd reason. Every single high level official I have talked to discusses these kinds of things often, but you keep complaining about how someone is not following a rule that you are not in a position to even say with any kind of authority in the first place. You do not work for the NF. You do not work the the NCAA. I wonder have you ever been to a high level camp where maybe one of the guys on the actual game might have actually attended to talk about what they do.

I also said there was contact, I did not suggest there was a foul. All contact is not a foul as you should know. And in my opinion the foul did not really occur until it was clear he was shooting. As someone else said, if he could not catch the pass, you might have had a different situation. But to me, when contact starts it might be a foul, but wait to see if they are really disadvantaged.

Peace

[Dad]

Originally Posted by AremRed

The game of basketball has evolved Nevada -- that is exactly what Start, Develop, Finish has come to mean. I'm sorry you have fallen behind the times. This ain't the 50's anymore.

I've heard so many different ways to handle SDF. I doubt it's exactly anything.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dad

I've heard so many different ways to handle SDF. I doubt it's exactly anything.

So...

The SDF philosophy is still in the D phase -- and you are waiting for it to F before it's applied?

(and the "you" is generic; not specifically you, Dad)

[deecee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You can write an entire dissertation on why you think you are right, that is a shooting foul to me. I have called it a shooting foul in the past, I will continue to do so in the future, and no supervisor I have will tell me I got it wrong.

+1. The call made on the video is the expectation. You can quote all the rules/philosophies/etc. that you want but in the end the coaches and assignors at the college level have set an expectation and you (Nevada) are incorrect.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by deecee

+1. The call made on the video is the expectation. You can quote all the rules/philosophies/etc. that you want but in the end the coaches and assignors at the college level have set an expectation and you (Nevada) are incorrect.

The expectation is that the rules are to be applied correctly. Doing otherwise is going to get an official in trouble when the situation is analyzed on ESPN or CBS with ten HD cameras.
We've seen that happen in the past several years come conference tournament and NCAA tournament time.

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The expectation is that the rules are to be applied correctly. Doing otherwise is going to get an official in trouble when the situation is analyzed on ESPN or CBS with ten HD cameras.
We've seen that happen in the past several years come conference tournament and NCAA tournament time.

True but as you probably know there is a lot of gray area in our judgement of plays and how we apply the rules. The modern understanding of that gray area is perhaps a bit different than yours.

[rockyroad]

Don't the "rules" say that a foul is contact that hinders normal offensive or defensive movement? In that case, the egregious holding "foul" that one member says "must be called" is not a foul, as it obviously did not hinder anyone. The contact on the airborne player who has caught and is shooting the ball DID hinder his normal landing, and so was called a foul. Seems like the correct call to me (for whatever that's worth).

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The expectation is that the rules are to be applied correctly. Doing otherwise is going to get an official in trouble when the situation is analyzed on ESPN or CBS with ten HD cameras.
We've seen that happen in the past several years come conference tournament and NCAA tournament time.

The slight tug didn't cause a disadvantage, so it's not a foul.

Why's this so hard to get?

[Adam]

I must be watching the wrong video, or I'm watching the video wrong. I don't see a discernible hold.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by Adam

I must be watching the wrong video, or I'm watching the video wrong. I don't see a discernible hold.

In the first and last shots you can see blue have his right arm inside of white's left, before white ever leaves the floor. Blue has is hands open but he is using his arm to hold. Not a grab. Had the official blown the whistle before white left the floor I can't see him counting it. He held his whistle until after the catch. Blue's arm is in the neighborhood and as Arem said, there was a bump also. He just let it play out and called the last foul/contact. Doesn't have to call the hold....

And I didn't catch the bump until Arem pointed it out.