The Name Game (Shirley Ellis, 1964) ...
 

More names in the score book than there are players warming up due to injury, illness, etc.

Is it necessary to erase the extra names?

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

We were always taught that it was better to have more names in the book than those warming up rather than fewer names in the book than those warming up.

Tonight, my partner, the referee, insisted that the extra names be erased. He was the referee, so I just let him do his thing. I've never had anyone insist on this before. Was he right, or wrong?

I would rather have more than fewer. If something happens and a kid has to play, at least he is in the book.

Peace

Inquiring Minds Want To Know ...
 

What if he's on the bench but not in uniform? What if he's not even at the site?

What does it matter? Maybe the player forgot his uniform and coach doesn't plan to use the player until the 2nd half when his mom brings it.

There is no justification for erasing names from the book. The coach can list all individuals he/she wants.

Who care if he/she is on the bench but not in uniform or if he/she is or is not at the site? Maybe the player is not expected to play until the second half or will not arrive at the site until half time.

MTD, Sr.

Background Information ...
 

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post946707

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post700909

https://forum.officiating.com/basket...tml#post406783

Why would I care?

Peace

Care Bears ...
 

The answer to your question depends on whether you believe my partner was right, or wrong, to erase the extra names.

Wrong? You shouldn't care.

Right? You should care because (maybe) it's a rule that may be complicated by kids on the bench in uniform that can't play (injury, illness, discipline, grades, etc.), kids not in uniform on the bench, or kids not at the site at all, maybe on their way, maybe not.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

To me personally, the more names the better, but something made my veteran partner have those names erased tonight. I'd like to know if he was right, or wrong, and why.

Your partner was the definition of OOO here. This is nothing. You don't know if A45 is running late. By forcing them to erase names, you'd be creating an unfair technical foul later.

He's reading way too much into the rule.

Where is the rule that restricts who a coach may list on the roster?

Maybe These Rules ...
 

10-1-1: A team shall not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

4-34-2: Bench personnel are all individuals who are part of or affiliated with
a team, including, but not limited to: substitutes, coaches, manager(s) and
statistician(s). During an intermission, all team members are bench personnel for
the purpose of penalizing unsporting behavior.

No one I work for cares who was dressed and when, just be in the book if you do play. And I have worked college games where we've T'd for players being entered into book after the game started and for an incorrect number.

The Intent And Purpose Of The Rules ...
 

Billy, we went through this a few years ago when IAABO issued a ruling that such names could not be in the book. If I recall correctly, it stated that if the team member was not present at the start of the game, then his name could not be placed in the book at that time and would have to be added later upon his arrival creating a technical foul.

I didn't agree with it then and don't now.

Injured Kid Not In Uniform On The Bench ...
 

Me too (I got the question wrong). Worst refresher exam question in IAABO history.

IAABO Refresher Exam 2005: Question 73. Squad member #45 missed the bus and is not present at the time the squad list and starting lineup must be submitted for team members. During the pregame warmup, the referee counts eleven team members of team A but while checking the book team A has twelve team members listed. Referee informs the coach that the squad member who is not present may not be placed in the book even if he/she will get to the game late. Is the referee correct? Answer: Yes Rule Citation: Rule 3, Section 2, Article 1; Rule 4, Section 34, Article 4

I know that IAABO isn't the official interpreter of NFHS rules, but is the interpretation based on existing NFHS rules, independent of IAABO, maybe not in the case above, but maybe with a injured kid not in uniform on the bench (this is the kid whose name my partner had erased)?

3-2-1: At least 10 minutes before the scheduled starting time, each team
shall supply the official scorer with the name and number of each team member
and designate the five starting players. Failure to comply results in a technical foul
(see 10-1-1 Penalty).

So, who's a team member?

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player.

Again, why would I care? I do not care who is or is not in the book. And I am certainly not going to tell any team they need to erase a name for any reason. I always check the book with the head coach and I never ask them to cross off names even when they know that a specific kid is going to play.

And I do not care because there is nothing in the rule that requires the people sitting on the bench to be accounted for. The only way I would even think to care is if I am working the State Finals and they want us to verify this information as they have a limit as to who can be on the bench, but that is beyond my pay grade.

Peace

Nothing in those definitions says they have to be present.

Your partner was probably grumpy. I'd be grumpy having to do 2-man.

I have my first 2-man game of the year tomorrow and I have no idea what to do!!!:D

Run!

Injured Kid Not In Uniform On The Bench ???
 

Agree, even though it's contrary to the stupid IAABO refresher exam interpretation.

But how about the injured kid not in uniform on the bench (this is the kid whose name my partner had erased)? Do the NFHS rules address that?

10-1-1: A team shall not: Fail to supply the scorer with the name and number of each team
member who may participate and designate the five starting players at least 10
minutes before the scheduled starting time.

4-34-4: A team member is a member of bench personnel who is in uniform and is eligible to become a player

So, would it be legal, or illegal, for the scorebook roster to include an adult assistant coach who is on the bench (bench personnel but not a team member), not eligible to play, and not in uniform? (Stupid question, but sometimes extremes can clear things up that are otherwise muddled.) Erase, or ignore? (Pretend its a written test question.)

The rules say you have to list each team member. It doesn't say you can only list team members. So it's a lower limit, not an exact requirement.

There is no rule which prevents bench personnel from being listed in the scorebook.

Around here, it's hit and miss with partners who want to cross out anyone not present/not in uniform..

Edit: And furthermore, the team isn't responsible for what goes in the scorebook anyways. It's only responsible for the list provided to the scorer. Although the argument there is the same: at least all the team members, no upper limit.

Maybe we should not reference IAABO tests in this forum. ;)

Seriously Billy, why? As in why are you asking this question? Is this helping newer officials who are looking for real world applications of the rules? To me, all you're doing is confusing them with these questions that nobody asks but you.

I know of no IAABO interpretation that states that if a team member in not present that team member's name cannot be listed in the score book. There is no NFHS or NCAA interpretation that prevents at team from having more names in the book than it has dressed at the start of the game.

MTD, Sr.

Seriously? Did you read post #14 in this thread by BillyMac?

How do you know they are not in uniform if you can't see them?
The coach can list anyone he/she likes, even Snoopy. We don't determine eligibility.

Like someone else said, it doesn't preclude listing someone that isn't present. It doesn't even require all those that are present and in uniform to be listed (only if they play).

Like others have said, there's a lot of reasons why someone might be listed in the scorebook who isn't warming up on the court. Off the top of my head:

Forgot their uniform, and they're waiting for Mom/Dad/assistant coach #14 to drop it off.
Still in the locker room attending to personal business, getting extra stretching, or treatment of an injury.
Performing in a band concert (This has happened to me in my high school days)
Stuck in traffic 5 miles from the game site.
Suspended by the coach for the first half of the game
Broken shoelace

Shall I go on?

RE: assistant coach listed in the scorebook: I don't know, nor do I care, about the names of assistant coaches (or players, for that matter)... If #43 is listed in the scorebook and it turns out #43 is an adult assistant coach, and #43 actually plays in the game... well, then the opposing team gets to file an incident report with the state. Same thing would happen if #43 was an actual team member who had gone over the daily/yearly participation limits set by the state.

I'll reword my question.

Where does it limit, in any way, the names that may be in the book?

Especially 11 year old tests.

That is the key. If some overly officious official wants to erase names from the book, then so be it. But if that player is later sent to the table to report in to the game, there is no penalty AS LONG AS THAT PLAYER'S NAME AND THE CORRECT NUMBER WAS PROPERLY PROVIDED TO THE SCORER PRIOR TO THE 10 MINUTE MARK.

This forum is actually in 100% agreement on this. That should tell you something. :)

I think you're trying to hard to justify your partner's decisions here. That's admirable, but futile.

From games last Friday...

C Team (freshman) game and JV game going on at the same time in adjacent gyms. Player is playing first half of C team game and second half of JV game. So he is listed in both books.

According to BillyMac's partner, we would have to erase his name from the JV book since he is not warming up with them. And then we would have to issue a T for adding his name to the JV book in the second half.

Good luck with that.

Even if BillyMac's partner requeires him to be erased from the JV Book because he wasn't there for the start, you do NOT have to issue a T for adding his name back in the second half as long as his name and number were provided to the scorer prior to the 10 minute mark before the scheduled start time of the game.

I Know What I'm Doing ...
 

An award winning middle school science teacher for thirty-plus years knows how to ask pointed questions to educate, and to elicit followup questions to make a point.

Silly Monkeys ...
 

Especially stupid IAABO tests with really silly interpretations.

BillyMac's partner would have the kid's name and number stricken from the team member list submitted to the scorer.

Where's The Like Button ???
 

Like. Like. Like.

More Than One ???
 

Eastshire: You've seen this before, with multiple colleagues? So this really isn't an exercise in counting angels on the head of a pin?

Trying To Walk In His Shoes ...
 

He was the referee. I just let him do his thing and argue with the coach ("I always list my entire roster. Nobody has ever asked me to erase a name before."). I felt that he was being overly officious, and I didn't even broach the subject with him after the game. I brought this to the Forum to get a definitive answer so that the next time he does this (he's done this before), I can hit him where it hurts with a citation, or two, like the posts from Eastshire, Camron Rust, and Adam (above).

For your information, I asked the same question to my local interpreter. He said more names are better than fewer names.

OK, so let him strike all he wants if he doesn't want a name in the book simply because that individual does not appear to be there or ready to play.

My question is, if you KNOW that name WAS in the book, or WAS submitted on the roster given before the 10 minute mark, and he had it stricken, and then that player goes to check in, are you going to let your partner assess a technical foul if he wants to?

I have to let my partner assess any foul that he wishes. I have no authority to prevent him from doing so. It's in the rules that the officials cannot overrule the decisions of each other made within their purview.

No Train Wrecks ...
 

Is this a rhetorical question?

If not, absolutely not. I'm stepping in to prevent a train wreck.

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M25...=0&w=300&h=300

No, it was not a rhetorical question.

I'm with BillyMac on this one. I'd be hardpressed to finish a game in which my partner tried to assess a TF as presented above. And the Coach would CERTAINLY know that I thought he was getting screwed.

True, but if I'm the one the table calls over when the name gets added, I'm going to note that it was a name originally provided prior to the 10 minute limit, and tell the book to add the name and we'll move on. If my partner comes in and insists on calling a T, that's one he'll have to answer for. I'll pull him aside and talk to him about it, reminding him that the rule only means coaches have to provide the roster, which he did. Then we'll make a united call. If that's a T, he can support that to the assigner.

Lower The Life Boats, Abandon Ship ...
 

I wouldn't overrule him, but I would certainly try to talk him of it. He's the captain, he can go down with the ship if he wants to, but I'm not going down with him.

sb elicit!

But a piss poor example of an English teacher:)

NevadaRef:

Yes, I did read Billy's post (Post #14), and I also remember that question from the 2005 IAABO Refresher Exam and as an IAABO member then and now, I said that the answer in the answer list was not correct, because as there is nothing illegal for a team to have more names in the scorebook than team members in uniform. And, no R can remove names from the scorebook.

Lets address IAABO. What I am about to write I have written before so the old hands will have to bear with me. I am an engineer by profession and a structural engineer by specialization.

We have engineering organizations that represent all engineers and three organizations come to mind: National Society of Professional Engineers (including its State and Local chapters), The Order of the Engineer (U.S.) and The Ritual Calling of the Engineer (Canada). We engineers also have specialization organizations such as ASCE (civil engineers), ASME (mechanical engineers), IEEE (electrical engineers), and the Structural Engineers Association of California, to name a few. These organizations provide continuing educational opportunities for its members as well as advocate for the profession.

The equivalent organizations for sports officials are: professional organizations: NASO and the NFHS Officials Assn.; specialization organizations for basketball: IAABO, CaliforniaBOA, and the various LBOAs and StateBOAs across the country. Sport officials organizations do the same for sports officials.

We as sports officials should be looking at our organizations as vehicles to improve our profession both individually and as a whole. They provide a gateway for officials to become more involved in their profession.

Alright, time for me to go to bed. Good night all.

MTD, Sr.

That's because the NFHS rules are written for high school varsity contests, not to cover situations involving kids participating in multiple subvarsity games. It says so on the very first page of the NFHS rules book.

Stupid Homophones ...
 

That's on me. I'd like to blame spell check, but I'd be lying.

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.M7f...=0&w=300&h=300

Certainly more than one. It is very common among scorers. They always want to strike non-present players. I would say that in about a third of my games I tell a scorer it's not necessary to scratch out a non-present player. I do work exclusively sub-varsity, so perhaps that's a factor.

The referees who want to scratch players tend to be old-timers or older new referees with the "that's how it was done when I played" mind set.

They are usually also guys who would better served if they spent more time on positioning and play-calling.

Except that in our state, all HS contests follow NFHS rules and procedures unless the WIAA has a noted exception (shot clock for example).

That is how it is with most of us that work in our state. We have some amendments to the uniform rule because of all the uniform problems with had in our state.

Peace