VIDEO REQUEST - OU/WV - Blocking Call - 2nd Half, 5:59 remaining

[#olderthanilook]

It looks like A1 used his left hand to help elevate himself beyond B1.

Btw, I have a block here since the defender did not have LGP until after A1 is already in his habitual shooting motion and first contact is initiated by B1. A1's left hand comes into play after these two factors.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

It looks like A1 used his left hand to help elevate himself beyond B1.

I did notice that also.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

Btw, I have a block here since the defender did not have LGP until after A1 is already in his habitual shooting motion

I don't think that's the rule anymore.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I don't think that's the rule anymore.

It's not. But for fun, I analyzed it from that perspective, and under the rule that only lasted a year or two, this would have been a block.

As it is, we have the torso argument, and the left arm argument. 50/50 from here. I'd love to get a look from C's angle, and I wouldn't question his reasoning regardless because this was very close for lots of reasons.


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[APG]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

It looks like A1 used his left hand to help elevate himself beyond B1.

Btw, I have a block here since the defender did not have LGP until after A1 is already in his habitual shooting motion and first contact is initiated by B1. A1's left hand comes into play after these two factors.

That is not the deciding point for when the defender has to obtain LGP under any rule set. Even in the NBA, a defender has to obtain a legal position prior to the offensive player's upward movement of his shoulders to be considered legal. The habitual motion is almost always well before this point. And under NCAA/NFHS rules, a defender must obtain legal position prior to the opponent being airborne. The habitual motion is well before this point at to use this at the deciding point is penalizing the defense.

[Da Official]

No call or block. Shooter gets the whole right side of his body (arm and leg) past the defender before the slight contact occurs. If defender doesn't embellish then we have nothing to rule on. He caused the problem so its probably why he got the block in this case.

(And I'm an OU grad...)

[Dad]

Originally Posted by Da Official

No call or block. Shooter gets the whole right side of his body (arm and leg) past the defender before the slight contact occurs. If defender doesn't embellish then we have nothing to rule on. He caused the problem so its probably why he got the block in this case.

(And I'm an OU grad...)

This isn't how the rule works. At all. The offense ran into the defense. Defense didn't do anything wrong therefore didn't cause any problem. LGP can start the length of the entire court.

[Da Official]

Originally Posted by Dad

This isn't how the rule works. At all. The offense ran into the defense. Defense didn't do anything wrong therefore didn't cause any problem. LGP can start the length of the entire court.

I guess its also how you define "ran into".

Defense "didn't do anything wrong" BUT he did get the block foul.

There was a "problem".....and the official resolved it. Some here say it was done correctly...and some say incorrectly.

Bottom line: On Block/Charges, there are the obvious ones where 90% of officials agree and then there are the ones where officials split 50/50 or 60/40. Its all subjective applications of the rules...100% of officials will never agree.......fun to discuss though.

[Adam]

From this angle, it's a clear charge to me, but I'd rather have the view of the official who called.

[spret93]

I would feel best about calling the PC foul here (defense had two feet, facing before A1 was airbone). I have more of an educational question though: as the Lead in a block/charge play, what is the best positioning? What if the play is right in the middle of the key? Do you want to have a view "in between" A1 and B1 as much as possible? Do you want to get more of a straight-lined angle so you can judge the defense's leaning/verticality?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Adam

From this angle, it's a clear charge to me, but I'd rather have the view of the official who called.

One thing this angle doesn't and can't reveal is whether the defender leaned to the side and into the shooter or not. That question could be seen clearly form the position of the C or the T...but not the trail (or this camera angle).

Some angles are better than others. Regardless of what position an official takes relative to the players, there is always one blind spot like this. When judging plays like this, the best position is not looking directly between the players as is the case in this video but is actually a straighlined position. That will show very clearly whether the defender leaned into the path or not. Of course, you give up the view of a lot of other possibilities which makes the straightlined position bad. The best position for a single official is thus one that is a diagonal look through the play....again not what we have in the video.

It would take unobstructed views from two angles on every block/charge similar to this play to know with certainty whether the defender was legal or not....one to judge forward movement (looking from the side) and one to judge lateral movement (looking from the back/front). If the defender satisfies both, then they are legal. But you sometimes can't see both from one spot.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Da Official

No call or block. Shooter gets the whole right side of his body (arm and leg) past the defender before the slight contact occurs. If defender doesn't embellish then we have nothing to rule on. He caused the problem so its probably why he got the block in this case.

(And I'm an OU grad...)

Not relevant. If the defender had LGP and legally maintained it (I'm not convinced he did, yet), it can not be a block, by rule. The shooter getting partially past doesn't change that at all. The shooter getting partially past only means that the defender has basically lost the right to lateral movement since such movement would be towards the shooter.

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by APG

That is not the deciding point for when the defender has to obtain LGP under any rule set. Even in the NBA, a defender has to obtain a legal position prior to the offensive player's upward movement of his shoulders to be considered legal. The habitual motion is almost always well before this point. And under NCAA/NFHS rules, a defender must obtain legal position prior to the opponent being airborne. The habitual motion is well before this point and to use this as the deciding point is penalizing the defense.

/thumbs up

Thank you for pointing that out.

[APG]

I'm also refraining from making a conclusive judgement until I see a view the baseline camera. I will say, if I was the slot, I would want my cadence on the whistle to be a bit slower.....to allow the lead a first crack at this play.