Substitutions

[PTref]

I understand that if A1 is subbed out during a dead ball, he cannot be subbed back in until the ball goes live and dead again, or the coach calls a timeout.

However, if A2 is subbed in on say, after the first free throw and enters the court, can A2 be subbed back out if the second free throw is made? Does he have to play time before he can be taken OUT of the game?

Does the rule apply for players entering the court as it does for players leaving the court?

Thanks.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by PTref

I understand that if A1 is subbed out during a dead ball, he cannot be subbed back in until the ball goes live and dead again, or the coach calls a timeout.

However, if A2 is subbed in on say, after the first free throw and enters the court, can A2 be subbed back out if the second free throw is made? Does he have to play time before he can be taken OUT of the game?

Does the rule apply for players entering the court as it does for players leaving the court?

Thanks.

You're close. A1 cannot reenter until the clock has properly run. The distinction is important because the ball becomes live and dead again all the time without the clock running.

To answer your question, A2 can be subbed out at any point. There is no similar requirement that players must play through any clock time.

[BillyMac]

A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter (with rare exceptions) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement. In other words, a player who has been replaced must sit a tick of the clock, however, a player doesn’t have to play a tick of the clock.

[Nevadaref]

What the two replies above have stated is correct for NFHS rules. You will find that the NBA requirement is different, so don't get confused if you watch a bunch of those games.

[APG]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

What the two replies above have stated is correct for NFHS rules. You will find that the NBA requirement is different, so don't get confused if you watch a bunch of those games.

NBA is opposite...must play a tic...not sit a tic...UNLESS there's a change of possession, timeout, personal/technical foul, or administration of infection control rule (blood).

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

A player who has been replaced, or directed to leave the game, shall not re-enter (with rare exceptions) before the next opportunity to substitute after the clock has been started properly following his, or her, replacement.

Bonus question: What's the "rare exception"?

Correct answer earns a "major award":

[A Pennsylvania Coach]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Bonus question: What's the "rare exception"?

Correct answer earns a "major award":

If A6 has just come out of the game, and A1 commits a foul before the clock runs, and it is A1's 5th foul, and if A has no other substitutes available, I believe A6 could return.

Also, if A6 was fouled (common foul), came out, the ensuing throw-in was kicked so the clock never started, and then the table notifies that the previous foul was B's 7th (not 6th), A6 would return to shoot the one-and-one.

[Nevadaref]

Correctable error is the only exception.
The case book play authored by MTD a few years ago involving an injury is incorrect.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

If A6 has just come out of the game, and A1 commits a foul before the clock runs, and it is A1's 5th foul, and if A has no other substitutes available, I believe A6 could return.

Correct. The sub rule is, at least in part, to prevent a coach from shuttling players in/out over and over.

There is another rule that requires 5 players if 5 are available.

The two rules are in conflict. The resolution is that once only 5 are available, the issue being address by the sub rule is moot....so 5 play.

Originally Posted by A Pennsylvania Coach

Also, if A6 was fouled (common foul), came out, the ensuing throw-in was kicked so the clock never started, and then the table notifies that the previous foul was B's 7th (not 6th), A6 would return to shoot the one-and-one.

Again, correct. There is no rule that allows a player other than A6 to shoot the FTs if A6 is not disqualified and is not injured. Again, two rules are in conflict, and the right resolution of the conflict is to put A6 back in to shoot.

[BlueDevilRef]

I may be new here and my opinion not respected yet but here is my two bits worth: rules are meant to be enforced in spirit of fair play-across all levels, be it K-1st graders all the way to the NBA. At no time are the rules intended to put one team at a disadvantage when they have an available legal sub. Fouled out player has been DQ'd so just lose that argument. The splint isn't legal nor is the undershirt, until those are fixed. But why would you try to keep a team from not having five, unless you deem it an attempt to be unsporting by the player/coach? Sometimes we gotta realize it's a game and fair play i.e. Sportsmanship is paramount to all our success

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I may be new here and my opinion not respected yet but here is my two bits worth: rules are meant to be enforced in spirit of fair play-across all levels, be it K-1st graders all the way to the NBA. At no time are the rules intended to put one team at a disadvantage when they have an available legal sub. Fouled out player has been DQ'd so just lose that argument. The splint isn't legal nor is the undershirt, until those are fixed. But why would you try to keep a team from not having five, unless you deem it an attempt to be unsporting by the player/coach? Sometimes we gotta realize it's a game and fair play i.e. Sportsmanship is paramount to all our success

How long you've been posting has no bearing on your opinion being respected. A sound argument, with rules based support and/or common sense, is all that is needed.

[Pantherdreams]

Had one of these 2 summers ago and evaluator told us we kicked it and we hadn't even noticed until we looked at tape after.

Coach subs out A1 for A6. We are about to shoot free throws but have to deal with an injured B3 three (trainers, getting her off the floor, mopping, etc). B1 shoots both but there is a violation on A during the second free throw miss, so we shoot again. B1 makes the 2nd free throw and there is a sub for shooter waiting as well as a sub for A. We wave them both in. As it turns out the sub was A1 coming back in for someone else.

No idea if A6 took out wrong sub or if there was a message to be relayed or what. Regardless myself nor my partner had kept our eye no the prize on that one. Luckily that was the only real concern our monitor had.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Pantherdreams

Coach subs out A1 for A6. We are about to shoot free throws but have to deal with an injured B3 three (trainers, getting her off the floor, mopping, etc). B1 shoots both but there is a violation on A during the second free throw miss, so we shoot again. B1 makes the 2nd free throw and there is a sub for shooter waiting as well as a sub for A. We wave them both in. As it turns out the sub was A1 coming back in for someone else.

No idea if A6 took out wrong sub or if there was a message to be relayed or what. Regardless myself nor my partner had kept our eye no the prize on that one. Luckily that was the only real concern our monitor had.

This is confusing, but here in America we wouldn't have allowed the A1 for A6 sub until before the 2nd free throw. Why did you bring subs in while there was an injured player being attended to? If you wait to bring subs in until before the last free throw, this scenario is less likely to even happen, let alone getting you into the issue where the subbed out player doesn't come back until after clock runs.

[Pantherdreams]

Originally Posted by Smitty

This is confusing, but here in America we wouldn't have allowed the A1 for A6 sub until before the 2nd free throw. Why did you bring subs in while there was an injured player being attended to? If you wait to bring subs in until before the last free throw, this scenario is less likely to even happen, let alone getting you into the issue where the subbed out player doesn't come back until after clock runs.

Great point. Was using FIBA rules subs happen before free throws are attempted and after if the shooting team has at least 1 player waiting at the table.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

I may be new here and my opinion not respected yet but here is my two bits worth: rules are meant to be enforced in spirit of fair play-across all levels, be it K-1st graders all the way to the NBA. At no time are the rules intended to put one team at a disadvantage when they have an available legal sub. Fouled out player has been DQ'd so just lose that argument. The splint isn't legal nor is the undershirt, until those are fixed. But why would you try to keep a team from not having five, unless you deem it an attempt to be unsporting by the player/coach? Sometimes we gotta realize it's a game and fair play i.e. Sportsmanship is paramount to all our success

I agree 100%. This is HS basketball, and the NFHS has openly stated that in the interest of maximizing participation, cases like these should be erred on the side of having five players on the floor if five are available (available being the key word). Having illegal gear on or being DQ'd makes one unavailable, but I'm sure the intent of the rule was never to make a team play with four when a sub is only guilty of having been substituted for when bench depth unexpectedly became zero.

MTD's case play is solid. And yes, we like to make fun of Mary sometimes, but in truth she wasn't the devil some make her out to be. She was also the NCAAW editor, you know.

You can't plant your flag as the supreme guardian of rules interpretation in this forum but then turn around and claim the writers of the rules and case plays are full of $hi+. That's hypocritical.


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