Assistant chirping from stands

[tnolan]

UNI,
Keep in mind, I only know what you've told me, so you could be a rookie or about a 12 yr vet. So, I'll offer my opinion on your situation and you may take it FWIW.

First off, I'm also a younger/smaller looking official but have been around long enough to gain respect where needed. With that being said, impressions do get made regardless, by fans and coaches and I do somewhat agree that it's easier to get "worked" when you look younger. So things that help with that are trying to be the "R" more often than not. Work on your pre-game conference and impress coaches with a thorough speech. Work on good mechanics and a strong confident whistle. Show confidence in your calls and obviously knowledge of the rules and applying them correctly is paramount. With those things in place, any poor first impressions should be gone a few plays into the game.

Onto your situation and 4 questions...
While the comments from the assistant are not warranted in the least, you may have been better off halting play on the next dead ball and having a short discussion with the head coach in regards to his bench personnel. Something along the lines of "Coach, please take control of your bench/assistant. We're not going to listen to anymore of their comments before issuing a technical and that will also result in an indirect against you."

As for the HC technical, I would suggest using a different set of words for the coach in that situation. Again, his actions were also unwarranted and disrespectful and his statement is incorrect as he's implying that you're not paying attention to the game, while also implying that his bench can basically do whatever they want as you're not supposed to pay attention to them. But, even though it wasn't your intent, your original statement could come off as threatening or derogatory. Something better might be, "Coach...please go back to your bench." But would this have avoided the T? Who knows? Honestly, if he was already face to face with you, there is no excuse for that at all. You could've backed up or walked away after administering the technical and if the coach expresses that he'd like to discuss it then, you can appease him but only if he agrees to do so in a decent manner. Going back to my first point...had you informed him earlier about his bench personnel, you'd have 120% justification for the technical and he'd have nothing to question you about.

So...were both justified?
Maybe both could've been avoided, but were you wrong in calling both? No.
And depending on timing, your partner could've switched with you to take some heat off you and move you away from the coach. But things happen quickly on the court, and you also don't want to leave 10 players unattended.
Things like that can sometimes be difficult with only 2 officials.

You could've brought the situation up post-game with your partner and get his take on it. Take his opinion with a grain of salt, just as you would any other official and determine if it's worthwhile.

Also, you honestly don't owe anything to the coach post-game, even in a JV game. And this goes along with confidence in your calls. Right or wrong, that's how you saw it, that's how you called it, move on, game on, game over. Your area may be different, but we leave the court immediately once the horn sounds (an obviously if we're positive the game ended correctly)

Coaches are strange birds...when talking to them, you don't want to be the guy who ignores them completely. But you also don't need to give them a thesis on why you called what you did. I always let them know, "quick questions/quick answers". I've heard others say, "Coach, do you have a question?" If not, then we have nothing to discuss. When coaches ask questions, they deserve answers. But when they're just spouting off at the mouth, there are fine lines and key words that warrant penalties. But also, if you are discussing with coaches, avoid certain key words as well.

If you felt the need to appease him post-game or even when he questioned the bench technical, "Coach, I had heard enough from your bench and didn't like their last comment that questioned our judgement on calls."

And LOL at him thinking he can say whatever he wants because he adds 'sir' to the end. Reminds me of Ricky Bobby....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af-Id_fuXFA

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tnolan

UNI,
Work on your pre-game conference and impress coaches with a thorough speech.

Huh?

The longer a speech, the less competent I assume an official is. I would assume any coach with half a brain would think exactly the same.

My pregame with captains is 11 seconds. My greeting to the head coach is a "walk-by." They know why I'm there and by the time they get that position they don't need a speech from an official.

[tnolan]

Originally Posted by Rich

Huh?

The longer a speech, the less competent I assume an official is. I would assume any coach with half a brain would think exactly the same.

My pregame with captains is 11 seconds. My greeting to the head coach is a "walk-by." They know why I'm there and by the time they get that position they don't need a speech from an official.

Rich,

Our state REQUIRES a pregame meeting, and that our state associations' sportsmanship message is read verbatim, at every level (JH thru Varsity HS). We then have the option to go over small items like timeouts, substitutions, speaking captains, coaching boxes, and anything special about the gym.

sometimes i forget that this forum is "outside of my state" so, the OP might choose to disregard that part of my post, depending on how his state handles that sort of stuff.

also, i didn't say longer....i said thorough.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tnolan

Rich,

Our state REQUIRES a pregame meeting, and that our state associations' sportsmanship message is read verbatim, at every level (JH thru Varsity HS). We then have the option to go over small items like timeouts, substitutions, speaking captains, coaching boxes, and anything special about the gym.

sometimes i forget that this forum is "outside of my state" so, the OP might choose to disregard that part of my post, depending on how his state handles that sort of stuff.

also, i didn't say longer....i said thorough.

I'd do what's required and not a bit more.

But if I tried to cover anything else, I'd expect my partners to jump in and save me from myself.

I was a PIAA official from 1987 through 1994. Worked my first varsity game and 3-person game there. I grew up and went to college in PA. They still make officials wear that goofy keystone patch on their sleeve?

[tnolan]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'd do what's required and not a bit more.

But if I tried to cover anything else, I'd expect my partners to jump in and save me from myself.

I was a PIAA official from 1987 through 1994. Worked my first varsity game and 3-person game there. I grew up and went to college in PA. They still make officials wear that goofy keystone patch on their sleeve?

which is fine. and many guys in PIAA do the same.
personally, i find it a good time to go over a few items for "preventative officiating". but by no means am i reciting the rule book out there! so, to each their own. and hopefully the OP takes both of our advice and finds what suits him the best.

oh nice! yep, we're still "patched"
yeah, a lot has changed since '94.....

[Rich]

Originally Posted by tnolan

which is fine. and many guys in PIAA do the same.
personally, i find it a good time to go over a few items for "preventative officiating". but by no means am i reciting the rule book out there! so, to each their own. and hopefully the OP takes both of our advice and finds what suits him the best.

oh nice! yep, we're still "patched"
yeah, a lot has changed since '94.....

If there's one thing I like a lot about my state is that we don't wear patches in any sport. Baseball, basketball, football -- buy a regular shirt from any supplier and you're ready to go.

Back to the OP:

I'd find out what the role of the jackass behind the bench was before I started whacking. I don't whack spectators.

The coach closing ground after I told him to go back would be pretty automatic from me. One thing I've learned over the years is that once a coach comes onto the floor to argue, there's really nobody who can argue a technical foul at that point. I'm going to sit him down and he likely won't be a problem from that point forward.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by tnolan

Rich,

Our state REQUIRES a pregame meeting, and that our state associations' sportsmanship message is read verbatim, at every level (JH thru Varsity HS). We then have the option to go over small items like timeouts, substitutions, speaking captains, coaching boxes, and anything special about the gym.

sometimes i forget that this forum is "outside of my state" so, the OP might choose to disregard that part of my post, depending on how his state handles that sort of stuff.

also, i didn't say longer....i said thorough.

We're required to address sportsmanship, so I tell the players to handle their knuckleheads. Like Rich, I only do what's required because they're not listening.

With coaches, I mention sportsmanship because I have to. I ask them that stupid "legally equipped" question because I have to. I mention timeouts because that's something I've actually found helps; it's anecdotal and subject to change though. My captains meeting takes about ten seconds, and my coach's meeting takes about 15.

They aren't impressed by your speech, regardless of how thorough or articulate you are. They want that meeting over more than you do, and a thorough speech just keeps them away from their kids.

do what's expected in your area, but I'm with Rich, at the very least the advice to use your pregame speech as a way of impressing the coaches is not sound. IMO of course.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

We're required to address sportsmanship, so I tell the players to handle their knuckleheads. Like Rich, I only do what's required because they're not listening.

To say they do not listen is overstated. They might not listen for long, but I believe they listen. I just think we have to keep is short and sweet. We also have to give a sportsmanship talk, but nothing word for word. Some people have the right energy or the right attitude and they will control that meeting for the few seconds it lasts.

Originally Posted by Adam

With coaches, I mention sportsmanship because I have to. I ask them that stupid "legally equipped" question because I have to. I mention timeouts because that's something I've actually found helps; it's anecdotal and subject to change though. My captains meeting takes about ten seconds, and my coach's meeting takes about 15.

I personally do not like to even talk about timeouts as I think coaches know the rule and know they have to tell us. That might have been a concern in the first couple years of the rule, but now this is not an issue. They do it in college and the rule is basically the same and coaches are not apart of that meeting at all in college.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

To say they do not listen is overstated. They might not listen for long, but I believe they listen. I just think we have to keep is short and sweet. We also have to give a sportsmanship talk, but nothing word for word. Some people have the right energy or the right attitude and they will control that meeting for the few seconds it lasts.



I personally do not like to even talk about timeouts as I think coaches know the rule and know they have to tell us. That might have been a concern in the first couple years of the rule, but now this is not an issue. They do it in college and the rule is basically the same and coaches are not apart of that meeting at all in college.

Peace

No, I don't do that part anymore. If they aren't telling me, I'll grab their ear after the TO and request they let us know ASAP so we're not guessing.

I mention to have the kids out and ready by the 2nd horn. Frankly, we shouldn't have to and most of them already know the rule, but I've found anecdotally that it helps keep the game moving. Some still stall, but it seems to have helped with a few.

Still subject to change, though.

[BlueDevilRef]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

To say they do not listen is overstated. They might not listen for long, but I believe they listen. I just think we have to keep is short and sweet. We also have to give a sportsmanship talk, but nothing word for word. Some people have the right energy or the right attitude and they will control that meeting for the few seconds it lasts.







I personally do not like to even talk about timeouts as I think coaches know the rule and know they have to tell us. That might have been a concern in the first couple years of the rule, but now this is not an issue. They do it in college and the rule is basically the same and coaches are not apart of that meeting at all in college.



Peace

So then why are a majority of us having to clarify the length of timeout with coaches? Happens all the time to me and amongst the partners I talk with this about.

It is the last thing I mention at the pregame and coaches still hear "I asked, you didn't answer, so it was charged as a full."


I wish I had a cool signature

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

So then why are a majority of us having to clarify the length of timeout with coaches? Happens all the time to me and amongst the partners I talk with this about.

It is the last thing I mention at the pregame and coaches still hear "I asked, you didn't answer, so it was charged as a full."

People feel the need to do a lot of things that do not matter. It does not mean it is necessary. Again when I am the referee I never mention timeouts and some reason they tell us like they would otherwise. Just like people say, "White talks to white and black talks to black." Well I think that is not necessary but people say this often. It makes no difference to me what people say when they run their meeting. That is ultimately their business. I only do what I found works in my experience and saying that does not seem to make much of a difference said or not said.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

So then why are a majority of us having to clarify the length of timeout with coaches? Happens all the time to me and amongst the partners I talk with this about.

It is the last thing I mention at the pregame and coaches still hear "I asked, you didn't answer, so it was charged as a full."


I wish I had a cool signature

I'll ask and look for clues. If the players go to the bench, it's a full. If they don't, I'll ask until I get to the table. I can't remember not getting an answer.

[refinks]

Originally Posted by Rich

Huh?

The longer a speech, the less competent I assume an official is. I would assume any coach with half a brain would think exactly the same.

My pregame with captains is 11 seconds. My greeting to the head coach is a "walk-by." They know why I'm there and by the time they get that position they don't need a speech from an official.

My captain/coaches pregame seems to vary, even though I try to keep it the same every time.

I'll quickly tell captains to be good leaders on and off the court and help us out with any problem teammates, sometimes I'll throw in a joke about not hanging on the rim if they dunk, then I let them go.

Since my state is a single meeting with the coaches and captains, I then ask the coaches the mandatory questions (properly equipped, good sportsmanship) and of course they always answer with a yes or "They better be", then I'll remind them of the coaching box and tell them to get their huddles wrapped up on the first horn so we can get going on the second horn. I'll ask them if they have any questions and wish them luck. Usually takes about a minute, tops.

I've worked with several guys that feel like they need to lay out the court, the boundary line colors, the POE, how we're gonna call it, and all that. Those pregames suck and usually drag. Most of the time the captains aren't paying attention anyways, so why keep them there longer than necessary.

[deecee]

Rich I think my captains meeting may be shorter than yours .

All I say is I expect good sportsmanship, then ask if they have any questions (always a NO), then ask my partner if they have anything to add.

Half the time they do, and its usually the following 2 things

1. who's the speaking captain (I just don't understand this)
2. They reiterate sportsmanship and something about TO's

The last time my meeting was a bit longer was during a rivalry game where the previous game had an altercation. I reminded the teams to keep their cool and should things escalate to make sure their benches stay put. Same was said to the coaches.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by deecee

... who's the speaking captain (I just don't understand this).

I don't ask for a speaking captain, but those that do take 3-1-1 quite literally.

2-7-1: The officials shall conduct the game in accordance with the rules. This includes: Notifying the captains when play is about to begin at the start of the game.

3-1-1: Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.

3-1-2: The captain is the representative of his/her team and may address an official on matters of interpretation or to obtain essential information, if it is done in a courteous manner.

If the official doesn't know who the "real" captain is, who will he notify that the game is about to begin? Who will the officials discuss matters of interpretation with, or obtain essential information from?

I've heard two follow up questions to, "Who's the speaking captain": "What's your number?", and, "Are you starting?".

And everybody be sure to tell everybody that, "It's the blue line all the way around".