missed foul

[Dbyb]

Here’s the situation:

Team A is up by 4 points with less than one minute to play in the game. Coach of team B instructs his players to foul and we call two quick fouls and Team A is now in the bonus. Team A in bounds the ball near the center line. I am the lead on the baseline and a team B player wraps his arms around a team A player that is 20 feet from the player with the ball and is an obvious attempt to stop the clock.

By rule this is an intentional foul which I call while closing in quickly on the players. Team B coach takes exception to my call and storms onto the court waving his arms. I then call a technical foul on the coach. As I pass my partner on the way to the table, I inform him that we will be shooting two free throws for the intentional foul and then two for the technical foul and then administer the ball at half court to Team A. So far so good. The game then ends without further drama, with Team A winning by 6.

In the locker room my young partner says he was confused about the play procedure because of the foul he called. What?????? He then says that he also called a foul on the team B player that was guarding the dribbler up top which would have been a one and one situation for team A. He says that he assumed that I knew that he called the foul and that I had decided that mine was first. Our whistles must have blown at exactly the same time because I did not hear his whistle and his arm when we made eye contact.

1) Am I correct that this really was a false multiple foul situation (4-19-12) and that we should have administered the one and one, then the intentional, then the technical per 10-6-Penalty 7)?

2) If the common foul had been first, wouldn’t the procedure have been the same because the dead ball would not have negated the intentional foul per 4-19-1 Note?

[bob jenkins]

If the common foul was first, then you would ignore the Intentional foul (because you had it for "stopping the clock" -- if it was for "excessive contact" then you would still enforce it).

Still enforce the T, though.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If the common foul was first, then you would ignore the Intentional foul (because you had it for "stopping the clock" -- if it was for "excessive contact" then you would still enforce it).

Still enforce the T, though.

Wouldn't intentionally grabbing a player, not involved in the play, while the ball is dead fall under one of the two (intentionally or flagrantly) requirements to penalize a dead ball foul in nfhs rules?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Wouldn't intentionally grabbing a player, not involved in the play, while the ball is dead fall under one of the two (intentionally or flagrantly) requirements to penalize a dead ball foul in nfhs rules?

It would, but if the player thought the ball was live, this is generally one to let go. He's escalating the foul because he thinks we're not calling anything. If his hug happens close enough to a foul being called, I generally let it go and have a quick word with him.

We're within the rules to go ahead and assess it, though.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Wouldn't intentionally grabbing a player, not involved in the play, while the ball is dead fall under one of the two (intentionally or flagrantly) requirements to penalize a dead ball foul in nfhs rules?

Agree with Adam. I think Bob said is pretty well, if you can clearly tell that it was an attempt to stop the clock, nothing more, than I let it go if it occurs at relatively the same time as the common foul, and then remind him that had we not called the other one, this would have gone intentional.

[BigCat]

Originally Posted by johnny d

Wouldn't intentionally grabbing a player, not involved in the play, while the ball is dead fall under one of the two (intentionally or flagrantly) requirements to penalize a dead ball foul in nfhs rules?

It does/certainly can but if your whistle is just before mine, absent excessive contact and/or unsportsmanlike conduct i'm not going to report mine.

[Dad]

I'm guessing you meant you couldn't see his arm when you made eye contact. Isn't really much you can do here, but had your partner had his arm up and you could've come together there probably would've been no T on the coach.

Props for making eye contact and handling it well. I laughed when I first read your post because I imagined the coach thought you were calling the intentional foul on the ball handler.

Maybe I'm imagining the play wrong, but why did your partner cede a call to you that was right in front of him?

If we do come together on this play there is no way I'm doing either of your options (1&2)

[Dbyb]

We talked about it after the game and I think my partner simply deferred to me as the more experienced official. He certainly should have made sure I knew he had a foul but it's also my job to be aware of what my partner is doing. The coach and I also had a friendly conversation after the game and you're right, he said he was reacting because he saw the common foul and then my reaction.

[johnny d]

Originally Posted by Adam

It would, but if the player thought the ball was live, this is generally one to let go. He's escalating the foul because he thinks we're not calling anything. If his hug happens close enough to a foul being called, I generally let it go and have a quick word with him.

We're within the rules to go ahead and assess it, though.

Not sure I am letting a player hug an opposing player 20 feet from where the ball is at HS level or above. I know we let things go that are obvious fouls, designed to stop the clock and which by rule should be called intentional or ff1, but in my experience those are usually fouls committed against the person with the ball. A player not knowing that they cannot commit this type of foul off ball to stop the clock, or following orders to commit this type of foul against a player not involved in the play by his coach in order to put a worse free throw shooter on the line should be punished with more than a warning/quick word. In a lower level kids game, I would be fine with that.

[frezer11]

Originally Posted by johnny d

A player not knowing that they cannot commit this type of foul off ball to stop the clock, or following orders to commit this type of foul against a player not involved in the play by his coach in order to put a worse free throw shooter on the line should be punished with more than a warning/quick word.

I would agree with this IF there wasn't also a common foul nearly simultaneously on the ball handler. Unless you call a simultaneous foul on every double whistle for a kid getting a shot off in traffic in the paint, then I think not calling one here is consistent.