Should Either Be Flagrant? (Video)

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SAK

#1- Depending on how the game has gone this might be a no call as the defender hit ball first then body, making the contact incidental. It was not even a hard foul. Seemed to be just some bad basketball.

#2- This one is a foul no question about that. It is however only a block. No need to think twice about it. Not even necessary to have a conversation about it, yes it is a hard foul but the was nothing excessive or malicious about this foul.

On another note, what is the deal with the mechanics. I did not see any preliminary signals on either foul and did not see any communication on the double whistle. How does anyone know that there was not a multiple foul or which defender the foul was being called on?

I wouldn't have a preliminary signal here, either.

[SAK]

Originally Posted by Rich

I wouldn't have a preliminary signal here, either.

@Rich

Why not is that not required by NFHS in the mechanics manual. It is possible that its not but living in Arizona we are required to give a prelim.

[crosscountry55]

Prelims, though technically required in the manual, are inherently a local preference, or sometimes a preference of the individual official when he/she feels some "on-the-spot" information is advisable.

See how many preliminary signals you see when watching NCAA BB on TV. You don't see too many.

Likewise in HS, you won't see too many unless locally expected. When I worked in KS, the state coordinator wanted them, so we used them. Sounds like that's the case in AZ as well. But I would say in most places they are not strictly mandated.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

See how many preliminary signals you see when watching NCAA BB on TV. You don't see too many.

The NCAA manual is not the same as the NFHS manual. As a general statement (and subject to all the "when in rome" caveats already mentioned), NCAA does not require preliminary signals nearly as often as NFHS.

[Rich]

There are places where such things are not strictly mandated.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SAK

@Rich

Why not is that not required by NFHS in the mechanics manual. It is possible that its not but living in Arizona we are required to give a prelim.

Not every state follows NFHS Mechanics. So it is possible that no one cares about this the way you would at the location of this video. We are also required or asked to give a preliminary signal at the spot, but many times it is not done. It is really not a big deal IMO.

Peace

[zm1283]

We are required to give a preliminary signal at the spot of the foul. I'm so used to it now I don't even think about it. The only one I really don't like doing is the "hit" signal (I think it's illegal use of the hands). It just feels awkward doing it at the spot of the foul, but I do what I'm told.

The problem with NFHS signals is that there are several fouls that I think are hard to convey with their limited signal chart. I wish we were given more freedom to signal but I can see why they don't want officials making up their own stuff on their own.

[Camron Rust]

#1. Not flagrant. Not even intentional.

#2. Not flagrant, but I would lean towards intentional due to excessive contact depending on how the game was going. If there was a pattern of such rough fouls, I would have already advised the players to clean it up. If I had done that, I'd have no trouble going intentional on this.

[ODog]

Around here, nobody gives a preliminary signal on shooting fouls, and it's even somewhat frowned upon to throw up the two fingers in situations where we're obviously going to be shooting (like these two scenarios).

Preliminary signals only occur on fouls that will not result in free throws.

Oh, and ...

NO and NO.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ODog

Around here, nobody gives a preliminary signal on shooting fouls, and it's even somewhat frowned upon to throw up the two fingers in situations where we're obviously going to be shooting (like these two scenarios).

Preliminary signals only occur on fouls that will not result in free throws.

Oh, and ...

NO and NO.

I can see the prelim on obvious fouls, but I've seen too many cluster farks caused by failed communication. Even if I don't throw up two fingers, I'm telling my partner who the shooter is.

[Dad]

Originally Posted by ODog

Around here, nobody gives a preliminary signal on shooting fouls, and it's even somewhat frowned upon to throw up the two fingers in situations where we're obviously going to be shooting (like these two scenarios).

Preliminary signals only occur on fouls that will not result in free throws.

Oh, and ...

NO and NO.

Can you explain this?

It shouldn't be obvious to all three officials that you're going to be shooting. Why would communication be frowned upon?

[constable]

Originally Posted by SAK

@Rich

Why not is that not required by NFHS in the mechanics manual. It is possible that its not but living in Arizona we are required to give a prelim.

Preliminary signals are off little use when the foul is obvious.

FIBA is on to something with their approach- only block/charge, unsporting( intentional) or T's have a preliminary signal.