Should Either Be Flagrant? (Video)

[xyrph]

Same high school game, a couple minutes apart. Are either of these fouls flagrant? Thanks.

Foul #1




Foul #2

[OrStBballRef]

No and no...

Shoot your FTs and move on

[just another ref]

Not even close.

[bob jenkins]

Not only is neither flagrant, neither is even intentional (depending, perhaps, on what else has happened in the game)

[OKREF]

No chance. I thought we were going to see someone drove into the wall.

[Mark Padgett]

Neither foul was flagrant. However, because the defender's attempts really stunk, the fouls may be fragrant.

[crosscountry55]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not only is neither flagrant, neither is even intentional (depending, perhaps, on what else has happened in the game)

+1. These are hard fouls, but neither flagrant nor intentional. In the first clip, officials did a good job of closing down and making their presence known.

I also noted the scoreboard in the first clip. Tie game, 3 minutes left. To call an intentional foul here, even for the so-called criteria of "excessive" contact, would not be a good choice. I am in a unique position to render an opinion on the matter because.....well, let's just say you should take it from a guy who made this mistake in a camp game last summer and got a personal visit from the camp director in the aftermath. Good learning experience....but it hurt.

Shoot the free throws and move on, for the love of your advancement!

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

These are hard fouls ...

It's probably just a local thing, but here in Connecticut, the term hard foul is interchangeable with an intentional foul for excessive contact. Some officials will actually report "intentional hard foul" instead of "intentional excessive contact" while using the unauthorized intentional foul excessive contact signal.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Not only is neither flagrant, neither is even intentional (depending, perhaps, on what else has happened in the game)

Bob:

I think he was using the NCAA definitions: NFHS IPF = NCAA FF#1 and NFHS FPF = NCAA FF#2.

And I agree with everybody before me: No and no.

MTD, Sr.

[bainsey]

No and no.

[Adam]

No, and no, but white #32 is a defensive liability due to her lack of body control.

[Dad]

Curious why you asked if they should be flagrant and not intentional.

First play was kinda almost maybe a block. Think first contact is ball and most of the impact is probably from the offensive player jumping up.

Second I'm not seeing very well, but the defense just jumps at a stupid time and makes the best of the situation by swiping at the ball.

I'd be hard pressed to call an intentional on either of these stand alone plays.

[BlueDevilRef]

Seems like somebody should ask Santa for a rule explanation regarding flagrant fouls


I wish I had a cool signature

[bballref3966]

Originally Posted by BlueDevilRef

Seems like somebody should ask Santa for a rule explanation regarding flagrant fouls


I wish I had a cool signature

I don't disagree with you, but didn't you just recently get on another poster on a different thread for not being "humble" towards you?

Again, I don't disagree, and I've posted snarky things on this forum before, but it's a two-way street. If you want to be sarcastic and brash to other posters, then don't get mad when people direct it towards you.

Originally Posted by crosscountry55

In the first clip, officials did a good job of closing down and making their presence known.

Are we watching the same clip? Both refs who should have been getting in there are not doing so. The Lead is only sticking around because he can't seem to locate the right number. The C (who inexplicably had a whistle despite the play being in Lead's lap and having two players between him and the foul) isn't getting in there either. Hanging back and watching the players to make sure they behave is not the best thing to do here. The only dude who seems interested in getting in there is the freaking Trail!! Lead needs to be right there and let his presence be known with C right behind. That leaves Trail to hang back and observe the whole group of players.

I could see either of these as intentional based on excessive/WIF contact. Sure it's clumsy and perhaps not deliberate but those are not our criteria.